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The Value of Being a Native Speaker of English
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mr K. Trying to return to where I think the thread ought to be: what is the value of being a native speaker? To my mind, you have an initial advantage, more so in Russia that elsewhere but I suspect it still carries to some extent in most non-native lands. However, the aura wears off in a few weeks (less if you are really bad, which is where the CELTA point does come in to some extent), and then you are down to what you can do not where you come from.

So if you know nothing about teaching, this will become apparent, and people will drift back to competent locals. However, if you are a good teacher, then again, being a native speaker helps. So, yes, people tend to be less in awe of you than in the 'backpacker days' but yes, it can still be useful as long as it is not the only tool in your arsenal.
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

only tool in your arsenal? (brain over relaxed I think)
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is still value in being a native speaker in China. An unrelated degree, no experience but the right passport is probably going to make you more desirable than a non-native with a related degree, CELTA and experience in my neck of the woods.

During my first contract in my current location, non-native speakers were common, some had decent experience in their home countries, and the local authorities were quite relaxed about people working on business or tourist visas.

Four years on from then .... the correct visa is now required, and those non-natives I used to work with have gone. Often, but not always, replaced by native speakers with no job specific qualifications or experience. Enforcing the visa requirements has perhaps resulted in a lower standard of teaching, and as a result, the value of being simply a native speaker may have increased rather than diminished in value.

Does the aura wear off? Hmmm, not so sure TBH. If you work in a place where all the teaching staff are employed pretty much on the basis of their passport it doesnt. No one is qualified or perhaps even skilled ... so what you do could be accepted as just 'how foreigners teach English' from students who often believe just being around foreigners results in language learning.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does the aura wear off? Hmmm, not so sure TBH. If you work in a place where all the teaching staff are employed pretty much on the basis of their passport it doesnt. No one is qualified or perhaps even skilled ... so what you do could be accepted as just 'how foreigners teach English' from students who often believe just being around foreigners results in language learning
.

I guess we can agree that the value of native speaker status varies depending on region. Interesting that in D-M's region, high value of NS status may have lowered the quality of teaching...but if students pick up language by osmosis, who cares? Laughing
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, if you wanted to learn Arabic, Mandarin, Russian, Flemish, Turkish, Swahili etc - and there are two teachers of equal qualifications and experience - do you think it would be a factor if one was a native speaker and one wasn't? It would for me. Why is it different when it comes to learning English.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All other things being equal, then yes, I'd agree that I too would plump for the native speaker. However, the point being made by the OP is that just being a native speaker is nowhere near enough in today's market. A growing number of learners are not so impressed anymore with someone who has no training, little meaningful experience, just because they are native speakers. This is especially so when there are plenty of local teachers who have near native proficiency plus Cambridge or Oxford qualifications. It is a very unequal contest, and it is not the native speaker who wins it.

By the way, I know a couple of dozen Russian teachers here who would fool most other teachers from the anglophone world that they too were born speaking English. The sort of fiendishly high level that would be recruited by the secret services for sleeper cell operations. As a result, I have often wondered about the term 'native speaker' as a benchmark of proficiency. No way that an illiterate native speaker from the back-of-beyonds in anglophonia 'knows' English as well as these colleagues, no matter which way you measure it.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ditto Sasha.

All else equal, a native speaker is usually preferable, particularly at higher levels. However, given the large and growing army of highly qualified and proficient non-native speakers, significant competition exists.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
Ditto Sasha.

All else equal, a native speaker is usually preferable, particularly at higher levels. However, given the large and growing army of highly qualified and proficient non-native speakers, significant competition exists.


So, is it about qualifications?

If two teachers are equal regards qualifications, then does native vs non-native comes into the equation?

So, if we compare native speaker backpacker type with BA in meat pie studies and a non-native speaker backpacker type with a BA in paella studies - does the native vs non-native speaker issue matter then if you had to pick one for a job?

Sure, there might be non-native teachers of English whose English is so good you cannot tell if they are native or not but that doesn't translate to teaching skill or decent classroom management.

I am just going to state this as a personal opinion, my Spanish is pretty fluent but I wouldn't have the gall to even think I could be as effective as a native speaker Spanish teacher who had half of my qualifications, but that is just me. Embarassed
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my view, it is about teaching ability. If we are dealing with unqualified teachers, both native and non-native, then it is unlikely either of them will be very effective in a classroom. However, the non-native would still at least have the advantage of knowing what learning a language is, and the difficulties that presents.

So, I wouldn't sell yourself short as a Spanish teacher - you might actually be just as effective for many learners as a native Spanish teacher would be, depending on relative teaching abilities.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, if we compare native speaker backpacker type with BA in meat pie studies and a non-native speaker backpacker type with a BA in paella studies - does the native vs non-native speaker issue matter then if you had to pick one for a job


Thankfully, not all of us work at this level. Shocked Shocked Shocked


But as Sasha points out, either would bring some strengths to the mix.

The native speaker knows the nuances of the language (though we can break this down much further; hopefully we are talking about an educated native speaker with reasonable control of the language and not somebody from a 'village' in an Anglophone country where the dialect is so strong other native speakers can't always understand him/her).

The non-native speaker brings the experience of language learning, again hopefully successful to a reasonably high degree.

Most place I've taught sought a mix of the two.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
In my view, it is about teaching ability. If we are dealing with unqualified teachers, both native and non-native, then it is unlikely either of them will be very effective in a classroom. However, the non-native would still at least have the advantage of knowing what learning a language is, and the difficulties that presents.


I think this is one of the more common urban myths regarding native English speakers and that is that they have never been through the language learning process themselves, it might not be as common for a native English speaker to be conversant with a L2 as say, a Dutch person for example but it doesn't mean that all or even most native English speaker teachers are monolingual dolts. Some have been through the process of learning a language in school, for example, I took French for five years.

Quote:
So, I wouldn't sell yourself short as a Spanish teacher - you might actually be just as effective for many learners as a native Spanish teacher would be, depending on relative teaching abilities.


That is another point that is important also, actual ability in teaching.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robbie_davies wrote:


I think this is one of the more common urban myths regarding native English speakers and that is that they have never been through the language learning process themselves


This is not a myth, sadly. There are many English speakers who simply do not know what a verb is. They may even have 'studied' French for five years for all the difference that that makes. They are not successful learners of any foreign language, so we are not comparing like with like with regard to successful learners of English who then become teachers. In addition, despite many English speakers studying Spanish or French for years, many do not have much idea of how English explicitly works, surprising as that may seem. If you think that too is a myth, have a look on just this forum at the posts by Celta trainee hopefuls who have problems with the basic English grammar assessment entry task.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And who says I do? I'll put my CV and references from some of the best people in the field against yours any day of the week, shoot me a PM if you fancy it.

If not, don't be so arrogant


It's not about arrogance, it's about limiting the discussion to the backpacking level. When we start to talk about relevant higher-level qualifications, we are usually in a different realm than this. The nns teachers with whom I work are people with years abroad in Anglophone countries, and with related undergrad and postgrad degrees earned from universities in Anglophone countries.

Quote:
So, though I agree with what you say to an extent about education and you can marry that with experience, I don't agree with accent, accent is a part of life and a part of learning languages - and would this disqualify Jamaican English teachers from being effective language teachers? Why stop at regional accents of the inner circle countries? Dangerous territory you are entering into there.


Basic teacher training courses (CELTA/equivalent) do - at least in my region - sometimes have to deny certification to candidates whose accents are so heavy they are outside the standard range. I've known this to happen on a few occasions over the past 15 years. I've never seen it happen in some arrogant or insensitive way - they are spoken to at the onset of the course, feedback is sought from other native speakers on their comprehensibility, and their money is refunded. But it does happen; it's simply not fair to unleash, say, someone with a heavy cajun or very backwoods appalachian accent on English language learners.

Quote:
So, if you speak to most non-native English teachers about being able to teach their native language as well as them, 90% will insist that is not possible as you were not born speaking their language, try it the next time you are discussing this subject.


Again, I have worked for years with a careful mixture of native and nonnative speakers. This week I will interview a number of very highly qualified non-native speakers for an open position. The institution I work for, its faculty, and our students have clearly benefitted from the entire range of teachers, and there is no reluctance to hire qualified NNS.

The 90% you cite above would be those who happen to know no teachers of their language who have lived and studied for sufficient years in their country to be entirely proficient - on top of being qualified - to teach a 'foreign' language. Numbers of these are growing significantly.

Another relevant point is that, in fact, a majority of ELT worldwide is in fact done by non-native English speaking teachers. Consider all the local/state school instruction grades 1-12 (or whatever grade range). These jobs are by far largely staffed with local nns teachers. In some regions, they do a relatively poor job, but in others, they are pretty good overall. Germany and the Netherlands would be among the reasonable examples. Scandinavia as well.

You can try making the point to Northern Europeans that their nns English teachers are ineffective. You can use all the big words you want to make this argument, and they'll be able to rebuff your arguments in kind, I can assure you. Rolling Eyes Laughing
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Mr. Kalgukshi
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Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A posting has been deleted for being confrontational. The next step will be permanent banning.

Civil discussion is what we want here. Anything less is unacceptable.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:

I guess we can agree that the value of native speaker status varies depending on region. Interesting that in D-M's region, high value of NS status may have lowered the quality of teaching...but if students pick up language by osmosis, who cares? Laughing


I had a new student start in my lower-intermediate class yesterday. My first activity was a typical Monday morning warmer, 'Tell your partner the best and worst things about your weekend and share with the class'. My new students didnt understand any of my instruction, gazed blankly at my modelling and after having my best student help her, couldnt offer anything at the feedback stage.

This theme continued throughout the class, and I had to switch to groups rather than pairs as my new student wasnt able to contribute or understand anything.

After the class I felt I needed to discuss her placement and suggest she moves down several classes. She did want someone to translate as she couldnt understand much of our conversation, but she did tell me that she had paid money and wanted to only have foreign teachers, even if she didnt understand the classes. That can be the obsession with foreign teachers here ... she may be prepared to spend her one month sitting in classes she rarely understands and contributes little rather than sitting in a class she can understand and communicate in. All because of the perceived value of a native speaker.

And she is actually a non-native teacher of English. Works at middle school level apparently.
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