|
Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 744
|
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
charlesmarlow wrote: |
Kungfuman
I hope you are one of the 5% of travelers who enjoy their trip to Vietnam and return. However, as you exit the airport, your trip will begin with the hospitality of Vietnam and her people. As you travel through Vietnam you will also get a taste of this hospitality. You may also see some interesting things and may obtain an understanding of Vietnam. One important aspect of the Vietnamese is that they have a distrust and hatred of each other. So when you see the Vietnamese screaming, threatening etc each other, this may help you understand what is going on. Also, everything is face, and they will die and kill for it.
Also remember the history of Vietnam. It is a conquered society and needs to be told what to do. So don't forget that they understand this and enjoy taking orders from others. In fact, the main reason that Vietnam has been "developing" is because foreigners are here and giving them instructions on what to do and how to do it.
Also, the Vietnamese smile is the most difficult smile to understand. Best of luck with that. You should also pay attention to the word yes, it does not always mean I agree but possibly I am listening, I understand. The Viets also love to withhold information to benefit themselves. You will also meet Vietnamese who want you to go into business with them and they will repeat one of the leading lies of the Vietnamese. The lie is that they are interested in long-term relationships to benefit both parties. But the only kind of relationship that most of them are interested in is to cheat, steal, from their partners. The name of the game in doing business in Vietnam is corruption.
Finally, as you are being ripped off from almost every Vietnamese that you meet, don't forget that their value system is based on dishonesty, lying, cheating, etc.
I hope you have a great trip. |
How surprising to see another post like this coming from you...
To the OP: Don't let people like this discourage you from coming. They've obviously been here too long, and are too blinded by a few bad experiences to see the beauty of this country anymore.
My parents recently visited Vietnam last month. It was their first time in Asia so they came with no expectations, and they were blown away by beauty of the country and the friendliness of the people. They can't wait to come back. My dad is even considering buying property in the future.
That's the key. You can't bring your expectations and Western ideals and try to push them on a different culture. You're just going to start hating everything. These kind of people have no business living in exciting and dynamic countries like most of SE Asia, South America, most of Africa, and Eastern Europe. They're just not capable of adapting. They should stick with the first world...
But I guess coming from China, you will probably be accustomed to many of these things. I lived in Beijing for a month, and I have to say that even switching to Hanoi was a huge relief for me. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
charlesmarlow
Joined: 17 May 2013 Posts: 68
|
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am very happy to hear that your parents had a great time in Vietnam and plan on buying property.
However, there are facts and data related to tourism in Vietnam. So if one can read English or Vietnamese, one will find information in Tuoi Tre,
Thanh Nien and other newspapers concerning this issue. And one will read the following: less than 5% of tourists return to Vietnam compared to about 45-50% for Thailand. There are many reasons but they generally state that most tourists were ripped off over and over in many different situations and circumstances. The articles also point out that the Vietnamese see a tourist as a one off customer so they try to fleece them for everything they can get. This is not only for foreigners but also for Vietnamese. So if one is from the countryside and travel to the city, the Viets will also try to overcharge and take advantage of them. If a Saigonese travels to Hanoi, the Hanoians will do their best to steal and rob them for every dong they can get. Don't take my word for the above info, ask the Viets. In fact, the people in Hanoi are some the most dishonest people on the planet. I have vever heard of a foreiner moving to HCMC from Hanoi and returning to live in Hanoi. And this is not because of the weather. Also how many Saigonese move to Hanoi?The Vietnamese also blame the victim for crimes that are committed against them. This is standard in Vietnam. Regarding corruption, according to the WB, Vietnamese Government, ADB, corruption is escalating in Vietnam. The Vietnamese Govt conducted a major study in 2012 at universities concerning the concept of bribery and ~85% stated that they would participate if it helped them and thier families.
My parents also visited Vietnam four years ago but they are world travellers. They have travelled extensively in third world countries and they were dismayed at many things in Vietnam. In particular, the harrassment from the Vietnamese no matter where they went. In fact, my mother was concerned for her safety. And they will never return.
We now meet in Thailand every year.
Regarding western ideals, one can't comment without the details. But would be very interested in hearing the details.
And yes the Vietnamese seem friendly especially that smile but beware of
the smile, the friendship is based on what they can get from you, whether you are a Viet or a foreigner.
One could write a lot more about the criminal mind of the Vietnamese
but it's unecessary, all one has to do is walk outside and keep your eyes open.
There are many different opinions about Vietnam and her people. So some people think that the Vietnamese are some of the most honest people on the planet, and others see them as the complete opposite, I would question who is blind and refuses to see reality. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 518 Location: Phaic Tan
|
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
One who gets a package tour to Vietnam, travels with a Vietnamese speaker or someone who has oodles of USD in their pocket who has little to no idea about how much things should cost will see things through different eyes to someone using local transport or a motorbike and generally has a rough idea about what things ought to cost.
There is no doubting Vietnam is a beautiful country, the ethnic minority people are extremely friendly and generally honest, but from someone who's traveled pretty much the entire country, the Vietnamese are opportunists to the Nth degree. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
charlesmarlow
Joined: 17 May 2013 Posts: 68
|
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The rich tourists on package tours do have a lot of money but they know what a dollar is worth and know when they are being ripped off, possibly after they buy something etc. And they are not returning to this shameless country. And yes the ethnic minority people are friendly and more honest then the Vietnamese because they are not Vietnamese. Their values are very different.
Here is just one example(of millions) of a group of French tourists who were ripped off from the Vietnamese the minute they landed in this exciting and dynamic country. I suspect they had the wrong expectations and tried to push their western ideals on Vietnam and her people. They need to adapt and if they cant just return to the first world asap. Shame on them! I suspect that they will not be returning to this beautiful country for any reason including buying property.
http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/pages/20130513-french-tourists-cheated-money-exchange-tan-son-nhat-airport-vietnam.aspx |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 518 Location: Phaic Tan
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 744
|
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
My parents are seasoned travelers as well. They've just not been to Asia before their visit to Vietnam. They do most of their traveling in South America and Pacific islands. They work for an NGO that does a lot of charity work in developing and impoverished communities. Usually building facilities or funding projects to improve quality of life.
So they've seen a lot of the 3rd world. They didn't think the Vietnamese were any worse than most developing countries they've been to. Its kind of standard practice worldwide to fleece the white (and now Asian) tourists. It's not any different in thailand. The locals all try to rip you off there as well. It's the same in china, it's the same in South America. In fact many countries are much more aggressive about it, like India. At least here they've never grabbed me or physically tried to push me into their shops.
I have read that statistic about only 5% of tourists returning. I truly don't know what the difference between Thailand and vietnam's tourism is. Perhaps there's more than just the evil locals as you would have us believe. Vietnam is definitely more difficult to obtain the proper visas to visit. It's also a very conservative culture compared to Thailand which is much more open in its offering anything and everything you can't get back home. Thailand is basically the party capital of Asia other than maybe Bali. Vietnam is tame in comparison, but living in Saigon you probably wouldn't know that.
In my opinion you sound like someone who has very few close local friends. This is why you think of them all as greedy con men out to see what they can milk from you. This is probably all you are to the locals you interact with. And it's not hard to see why. You clearly have a low opinion of them, and they can probably tell. I have several close Vietnamese friends who would move mountains for me if I asked them to, as they recently showed me when I was in the hospital. If you get off your superiority complex, stop looking down on this culture and its people, you would probably be much happier and find some of the best friends of your life. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
1st Sgt Welsh

Joined: 13 Dec 2010 Posts: 946 Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
|
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
ExpatLuke wrote: |
So they've seen a lot of the 3rd world. They didn't think the Vietnamese were any worse than most developing countries they've been to. Its kind of standard practice worldwide to fleece the white (and now Asian) tourists. It's not any different in thailand. The locals all try to rip you off there as well. It's the same in china, it's the same in South America. In fact many countries are much more aggressive about it, like India. At least here they've never grabbed me or physically tried to push me into their shops. |
Hear, hear!
ExpatLuke wrote: |
I have read that statistic about only 5% of tourists returning. I truly don't know what the difference between Thailand and vietnam's tourism is. Perhaps there's more than just the evil locals as you would have us believe. Vietnam is definitely more difficult to obtain the proper visas to visit. It's also a very conservative culture compared to Thailand which is much more open in its offering anything and everything you can't get back home. Thailand is basically the party capital of Asia other than maybe Bali. Vietnam is tame in comparison, but living in Saigon you probably wouldn't know that. |
As far as mass tourism goes, Vietnam can't hold a candle to Thailand, but that's not because Vietnam has little to offer tourists.
Lets not forget the Thais have been at it for considerably longer than the Vietnamese. Thailand has been a huge tourist destination from the 1960s/70s and I'm sure everybody here has friends and family who have visited Thailand and given it the thumbs up. Word-of-mouth goes a long way when people consider places to visit. Vietnam was either at war or, in many ways, a fairly 'closed' country up until the late '90s.
There are many other factors as well. How many international flights are there that pass through Saigon or Hanoi? Unless you are flying Vietnam Airlines, I'd wager pretty much none. If you are flying to, say, London, and the plane is re-fueling in Bangkok, as many airlines do, why wouldn't you take a few days off or even weeks to see Thailand as a stopover? It's pretty much a free trip as far as airfares go.
Furthermore, how much of the success of Thailand's tourist industry has been due to its sex industry? I would argue a considerable amount. Putting the rights and wrongs of prostitution to the side, I certainly don't want Vietnam to become another Mecca for sex tourism. There is also the issue of visas and many nationalities don't require any for a short stay in Thailand and this is something the Vietnamese Government, IMHO, would be wise to copy. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010 Posts: 274 Location: Vientiane, Laos
|
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've been living here for a long time and I refuse to holiday in Vietnam anymore. We can make excuses for the Vietnamese tourist industry all we want, but it is pathetic and not worth my hard eared money. I spend my money in Laos, Thailand and Burma...and no I am not a sex tourist.. I just want to relax when I holiday and Vietnam is not the place for that.
Having said that Dalat and Danang are great for a short burst of R&R but I only fly if I have to go there. Last time I took an overnight bus from HCMC to Dalat the temperature was so low people were wearing coats and blankets, can't the idiots put the temp at a reasonable level? then at 3:30 am the drivers starts playing 1880's techno at full volume...while everyone is sleeping... WHY?! amazing service.
Best way to subjectively look at the tourist industry here is look at the lonely planet forum, compare the scam alerts between SEA and see who is on top...The Vietnamese plan their tourism that same way they plan their traffic and everything else.... |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 518 Location: Phaic Tan
|
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Vietnamese staff are woefully untrained as seen by this article
http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/pages/20120308-japanese-tourists-find-vietnam-not-worth-second-visit.aspx
They aren't going to attract big spending tourists as they don't know how to treat such people. Even their airline sucks; compare Vietnam Airways with Korean, Asiana, Singapore or Cathay; they're way outclassed. The authorities have a long way to go sussing out their strategy here. Having so many opportunists doesn't help their cause; from the taxi and money changing scams at the airports, to the bogus and copycat travel agencies, to blatant lies being told in shops, to unresponsive customer service in restaurants, to pushy and aggressive hotels selling tours, the list is endless.
Vietnam is good for the adventurous traveller who doesn't mind being fleeced but for those with money who expect some quality of service are better off elsewhere. Thailand has a lot of scams too but service is a lot better and generally is much better for a holiday than Vietnam IMHO.
I wouldn't look too much into these figures being thrown around. One would assume the high return rate of Thailand stems from the hub that is Bangkok. I'd be interested in seeing the length of stay too. Most people do the highlights in Vietnam and tick it off the list so in most cases I don't blame them for not returning, the world is a big place.
Nha Trang still blows though  |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
1st Sgt Welsh

Joined: 13 Dec 2010 Posts: 946 Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
|
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
kurtz wrote: |
Having so many opportunists doesn't help their cause; from the taxi and money changing scams at the airports, to the bogus and copycat travel agencies, to blatant lies being told in shops, to unresponsive customer service in restaurants, to pushy and aggressive hotels selling tours, the list is endless. |
I'm not trying to be argumentative kutz, but that's pretty much a description of how foreign tourists are treated throughout the developing world. Sure, there are a few delightful exceptions, such as Laos (at least that was my experience), but tourists in the Third World need to constantly keep their guard up for obvious reasons.
Indeed, since Thailand has been mentioned quite a few times in this thread, in my experience, the Thais are on par, or even worse, than the Vietnamese when it comes to rip-offs! Jewellery shop scams, jet-ski scams, the fabled 'tuk-tuk mafia' and the list goes on. I know you acknowledged it kutz, but, I honestly think Vietnam is not as bad. The level of over-charging seems very similar to me, but the Thai scams, to my mind, are often far more ambitious. It is a real cottage industry! Geez, the number of Bangkok taxi drivers who have tried to talk me into a 'quick visit' to their 'sponsor' (i.e. a dodgy jewellers) is beyond belief. The worst scams I've seen in Vietnam were actually being conducted by Filipinos.
You also mentioned the customer service in Thailand and I have experienced appallingly bad service in Thailand. Arguably worse than anything that I've experienced here. From tourist bus drivers shouting at their passengers for talking quietly amongst themselves at 11:00 o'clock in the morning to waiters throwing down a menu on the table and walking off when they were being politely asked a question. When I first arrived at a guest-house in Chang Mai, after a fourteen-hour delayed train trip, I was being badgered to do a trek before I even had the chance to take my backpack off. They didn't even want to show me a room, until I agreed to a trek. I ended up walking out.
That's honestly been my experience. Don't get me wrong, I love Thailand! For the most part, the Thais are lovely people, the food is delicious and the bars and beaches are awesome. If I could get the same deal there that I've got here, I'd move in a heart-beat and, I imagine, so would most of the people on this forum. It's a great country with a lot to offer, but, in terms of tourist safety or customer service, I don't agree that's it much better than here and, personally, I think the opposite is true. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010 Posts: 274 Location: Vientiane, Laos
|
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
I wonder how many of the people on this board.. people living and working in Vietnam spend their holidays in VN or somewhere else? Is the 5% expats that return?
I know my vacation this year is not going to be in VN. Right now my good Vietnamese friends are in Europe on holiday. I asked them why they don't travel in VN or Asia and they said if most VN had the means they would not travel in VN either and most do because of economic reasons and not the greatness they all tell us is here. Now this couple was educated abroad and has done a good bit of traveling not the norm in VN but still say a lot that they won't holiday in their own country. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
1st Sgt Welsh

Joined: 13 Dec 2010 Posts: 946 Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
|
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
cb400 wrote: |
I wonder how many of the people on this board.. people living and working in Vietnam spend their holidays in VN or somewhere else?
. |
Depends on the circumstances. If I've got only about 5 days off, more than likely, I'll stay in Vietnam. If it's a longer break then chances are, I'll be out of here. It's not that expensive to travel around Southeast Asia from here and, besides, I've seen most of the tourist destinations that Vietnam has to offer. If Vietnam had awesome scuba diving, which, of course, it doesn't then I would be quite happy spending more of my holidays here . |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 744
|
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm the same. I have about 5 days off soon, and I'll be spending 4 of them in Nha Trang. I've done a fair bit of traveling around Vietnam and haven't ever ended up hating my experiences. In fact, I feel more comfortable traveling in Vietnam than I did in Indonesia. I really didn't like any parts of Indonesia that I saw. And Jakarta was about 10 times worse than Saigon's worst day. Bali takes pushy street vendors to a new level. :-/ But Im willing to give Indonesia another chance in the future. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
1st Sgt Welsh

Joined: 13 Dec 2010 Posts: 946 Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
|
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
ExpatLuke wrote: |
And Jakarta was about 10 times worse than Saigon's worst day. Bali takes pushy street vendors to a new level. :-/ But Im willing to give Indonesia another chance in the future. |
Yeah, the street vendors in Kuta are a piece of work . I'd rate them only slightly higher than the vendors in the 'touristy' places in northern India, but that's not saying much. I'm OK with merchants standing outside their businesses and inviting me in as a walk by, but when they make physical contact then, IMHO, that crosses the line. I actually had that in Bali. A douche bag of a vendor invited me in, I politely declined and then he grabbed me by the arm and tried to pull me into his shop. When I made it very clear that I wasn't going in, he sarcastically apologized and said that I must be a German .
Anyway, ExpatLuke, I'd certainly recommend exploring more of Indonesia! I've only been to Bali and Lombok but, from the little I've seen and based on reading and speaking to other people, Indonesia seems like an amazing country with so much to offer. Even Bali, outside of Kuta and Legian, is great. I'll definitely be back . |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 518 Location: Phaic Tan
|
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Clearly, Vietnam's tourism industry is in a crises. Reasons for this?
The increasing number of tourists who fall victim to scams in Viet Nam has negatively affected the image of the country in the eyes of international visitors.
In addition, the lack of quality tourism products is another reason fewer tourists are returning to the country.
Admitting that scams and overcharging were the main reason for a decline in foreign tourists, the minister said: "Cases of tourists being overcharged occur almost everywhere, causing tourists to form negative impressions about Vietnamese tourism. We have asked relevant agencies to accelerate co-operation and solve this problem. We are also working on solutions to improve our image."
Now, we can get personal with each other by accusing so and so person doesn't have any Vietnamese friends, or we can face facts, punters are sick of getting done over in Vietnam and word is spreading.
http://vietnamnews.vn/politics-laws/240724/culture-minister-in-the-hot-seat-over-nations-flagging-tourism-reputation.html
Are other countries such as Thailand floundering? No they aren't.
The latest tourism statistics for Thailand have just been released. During April 2013, there were a total of 2,013,012 foreign tourists entering Thailand. This is a 19.38% increase on April last year.
http://www.thaitravelblogs.com/2013/06/tourism-statistics-for-april-2013/
Let's keep personal anecdotes out of this, I don't care if someone was manhandled in Jakarta, Delhi or wherever. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling. Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|