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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
Let's keep personal anecdotes out of this, I don't care if someone was manhandled in Jakarta, Delhi or wherever. |
I'm actually quite comfortable in discussing on this forum things that I have had a direct, first-hand experience of and I will continue to do it. If Dave's is no longer the venue for us to share our experiences living, working and traveling in foreign countries, then, apologizes, but I mustn't have got that memo  . By the way, where did you get the view that the scamming situation and customer service in Thailand was superior to Vietnam? Could it have been your own personal experience? Is so, my experiences are different to yours and that's fine. In that example, I just briefly recounted my experiences to explain why I hold the personal, subjective opinions that I do. Seems fair enough to me, but, by all means, if you don't want to read them then feel free and don't.
| kurtz wrote: |
Are other countries such as Thailand floundering? No they aren't |
Firstly, who here has said anything about Thailand's, or any other country's, tourism industry "floundering"? As far as I can gather, absolutely nobody! Like I said, "when it comes to mass tourism, Vietnam can't hold a candle to Thailand" and I and some of the other posters here have given some of the reasons why. Thailand has amazing beaches, lovely people, great night-life, a well-established tourist infrastructure, delicious food, is located on a travel hub and has a long-held reputation for a place to go for great holidays. It also has the additional bonus, for those who partake [and, unfortunately, millions do] of a very vibrant sex industry. There are a million reasons why people in their droves go to Thailand for holidays and, where you and I seem to differ on this, is that I believe that Thailand's success in tourism has occurred despite its customer service culture and relative dangers of being ripped off, not, in part, because of them.
| kutz wrote: |
Clearly, Vietnam's tourism industry is in a crises. Reasons for this?
The increasing number of tourists who fall victim to scams in Viet Nam has negatively affected the image of the country in the eyes of international visitors.
In addition, the lack of quality tourism products is another reason fewer tourists are returning to the country.
Admitting that scams and overcharging were the main reason for a decline in foreign tourists, the minister said: "Cases of tourists being overcharged occur almost everywhere, causing tourists to form negative impressions about Vietnamese tourism. We have asked relevant agencies to accelerate co-operation and solve this problem. We are also working on solutions to improve our image." |
You know, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you combed through some late 1960s Thai newspapers and saw exactly the same thing. The tourism industry here is, comparatively, in its infancy. In regards, to it being in "crisis", well, I don't know that I would go that far:
http://www.vietnamtourism.com/e_pages/news/index.asp?loai=1&chucnang=07
1. Year 2. Estimated Int Arrivals 3. Growth from prev year
1. 2012 2. 6,847,678 3. 13.86%
1. 2010 2. 5,049,855 3. 34.8%
1. 2009 2. 3,772,359 3. -10.9%
1. 2008 2. 4,253,740 3. 0.6%
1. 2007 2. 4,171,564 3. 16%
1. 2006 2. 3,583,486 3. 3%
* Only 11 months of data available for 2011.
So, over the most recent six-year period, international tourism in Vietnam has, overall, increased almost 100%. A more than respectable result I would have thought. I'll say it again, it doesn't hold a candle to Thailand and some other countries, but it's moving in the right direction. By the way, these guys also seem to be fairly optimistic about Vietnam's prospects as a tourist destination and have given some of the reasons why:
http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/pages/20120315-vietnam-tourism-rise-in-global-ranking.aspx |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Sarge, always nice to chat with a gentleman.
The discussion seemed have changed to that of personal anecdotes. We are working, living and traveling in Vietnam so personal experiences are valid for Vietnam but when people start dropping anecdotes about other countries, it's not valid for this forum; a forum about Vietnam. My main gripe is that said anecdotes were used to undermine the fact that tourists are often badgered beyond belief in Vietnam, and next we have "but it's worse in India" or "nothing compared in Jakarta" or comments of that nature. Let's keep the anecdotes to Vietnam but facts should be used about other countries.
My article clearly shows that the minister for tourism is in big trouble, if you don't like the word floundering, so be it, I'll try think of another one, or a phrase perhaps; Vietnam's current state of tourism isn't what it should be given its wonderful landscapes. Your article proves my point, even if it is over a year old. Its title alone "Vietnam INCHES ahead in global tourism ranking" conjures images of something stagnating, struggling along and showing a lack of success.
For the record, just to let you know I have no bias, I loathe Thailand. I think its people are so jaded with tourists they really hate us, it's overrun with fat loser people of both sexes out for a sex holiday, tour groups are everywhere but it does have fantastic food and unbelievable deals for high end hotels in Bangkok. You'll see I have tried to use statistics to back up my claims that things are continuing to boom in Thailand. You're right in saying Thailand has been an established tourist destination for many years but Vietnam has a brilliant opportunity to be a "hot new destination" but recently things have slowed down. This is yet another example of Vietnam having so much, but screwing up yet again, just like their economy through mismanagement, corruption and a populace that doesn't have a clue how to treat foreigners in a respectful way.
I doubt you'll find many, if any, countries in the area with a steady decline over the past six years in tourist numbers but given what Vietnam has to offer, which is a lot, my contention is that it's the Vietnamese peoples' attitude to tourists, their poor customer service and lack or English that has them not leading the way. You want anecdotes? Talk to people in the tourism industry, go see unfinished resorts and hotels, see people getting sacked and then you might see the reality of how the tourism industry really is here. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Personal anecdotes are relevant to a conversation about tourism in Vietnam and other countries.
If someone says Vietnam is bad because of this and this, why can't I say that other places are worse? Try to keep your personal opinions as just that... opinions. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Personal anecdotes are relevant to a conversation about tourism in Vietnam and other countries.
If someone says Vietnam is bad because of this and this, why can't I say that other places are worse? Try to keep your personal opinions as just that... opinions. |
Yep.
| kutz wrote: |
| My article clearly shows that the minister for tourism is in big trouble, if you don't like the word floundering, so be it, I'll try think of another one, or a phrase perhaps; Vietnam's current state of tourism isn't what it should be given its wonderful landscapes. Your article proves my point, even if it is over a year old. Its title alone "Vietnam INCHES ahead in global tourism ranking" conjures images of something stagnating, struggling along and showing a lack of success. |
I don't think the Culture Minister is in big trouble. She is just saying that tourists don't like being overcharged, a lot of Vietnamese overcharge and that this is not doing the national tourism industry any favours. I don't mean to sound flippant, but, well duh! However, I do find it interesting that the Culture Minister is putting the responsibility for the health of the national tourism industry back squarely where it belongs and onto the shoulders of xeom drivers, street vendors, hotel receptionists etc., etc. In other words, normal working men and women. How convenient!
I know you mentioned this kutz, but no mention was made in that article of the millions of dollars that the Government routinely raises [and then steals] by issuing expensive tourist visas. Nor is there any discussion of the half-arsed manner in which Vietnam is promoted as a potential tourist destination abroad. I have never seen any advertisement for Vietnamese tourism outside of Vietnam. Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, even Cambodia, yes, but Vietnam, never.
Besides, if habitually ripping off and overcharging tourists means that a destination supposedly can't enjoy the economic benefits of mass tourism then, clearly, no one has yet thought to tell this to the Thais or the Balinese  . Yes, the Vietnamese routinely overcharge foreigners, but so does just about every other race in just about every other developing country and I maintain that, generally speaking, this is just part-and-parcel of traveling within the Third World. Below is one of my older posts and, to save me the trouble of typing something similar out again, I've quoted it, replete with the original anecdotes .
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Especially the thing about locals treating you like an ATM... not only is that extremely offensive to most Vietnamese, it's also simply not true. |
Although it certainly is not always the case, that sort of thing does happen here, it is annoying and I wouldn't say otherwise. But then that prompts the question, where does it not happen? You can avoid it to a large extent by traveling through, for example, Western Europe but then again you will be charged anywhere from $30 and up for a night's accommodation in a crummy hostel and the staff typically don't give a damn whether you choose to stay there or not.
If being treated like a walking ATM really gets up your snout then avoid spending time in the Third World. Vietnam is nowhere near as bad as some places. Don't go to Tanzania. You get strangers shouting at you: "Hey! Rich man give me money!" from across the street. I've never experienced that in Vietnam. Or try taking a relaxing stroll down Kuta in Indonesia. The merchants here at their worst don't hold a candle to those guys. Fancy browsing for carpets in Turkey? Good luck. And, for the love of God, whatever you do, don't go to northern India! |
| kutz wrote: |
| Talk to people in the tourism industry, go see unfinished resorts and hotels, see people getting sacked and then you might see the reality of how the tourism industry really is here. |
"How the tourism industry really is here" is that it has enjoyed an over 90 percent market increase over a six-year period right in the midst of the Global Financial Crisis. If every industry in Vietnam could say the same, this country would be well on its way to being considered wealthy. Does this mean that some businesses geared towards tourism won't still fail? Of course not.
In regards to whether Vietnam can become a "hot tourist destination", I wouldn't have thought so. However, it certainly has the potential to improve and, I hope, tourism can become a major industry here and employ many hundreds of thousands of people. If things keep going the way they have been then that will happen, despite the country having had a comparatively slow and rocky start. |
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TRH
Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 340
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
I don't think the Culture Minister is in big trouble. [He] is just saying that tourists don't like being overcharged,.......
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Maybe the Culture Minister should look at his own house starting with the two tiered fee schedule that is charged at nearly every publicly owned attraction. Private enterprise has moved away from this in places like amusement parks but foreigners are charged more to go into a state owned museum. Paradoxically, some of the wealthiest tourists are Viet Kieu and they of course avoid the surcharge. Why shouldn't the xe om driver try to charge the tourist more than his VN customers if the government does the same thing. The example of a correct attitude always starts at the top. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| That's one thing all of SE Asia could really improve. The two different fees depending on your skin color is something that can really rub people the wrong way if you're aware it's happening. |
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theoriginalprankster
Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 895
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm gonna step in and say I live in a touristy part of China.
When they say 8 kuai (for a Chinese burger - yummy) . I say no, I live in this city (for 8 years). Charge me normal prices, and they drop to 4-5 kuai.
F**k being overcharged. Say no. State the price you'll pay, and remind them you've been in the hood longer than them. They quieten down and accept your price quickly.
Just saying. |
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| theoriginalprankster wrote: |
I'm gonna step in and say I live in a touristy part of China.
When they say 8 kuai (for a Chinese burger - yummy) . I say no, I live in this city (for 8 years). Charge me normal prices, and they drop to 4-5 kuai.
F**k being overcharged. Say no. State the price you'll pay, and remind them you've been in the hood longer than them. They quieten down and accept your price quickly.
Just saying. |
I've lived in China also so I understand what your saying. But the VN are different, they would rather a foreigner walk away buying nothing, that sell at the same price as a VN. Here in Hanoi, they rip off other VN's who are not from Hanoi also. This is a face issue. If they sell to a foreigner for the same price they would lose face in front of their peers and staff...this was explained to me by several Vietnamese people I work with. It really goes to explain why this country is so backwards and the majority of the people are poor...having 0$ is better if you still have 'face' that having 100$ and no 'face'.
Hard to attract tourist with thinking like that.
I found in the non-tourist areas of China I wasnt really overcharged, but anywhere in Vietnam I go... countryside village or just outside my office someone is always willing to have a go and overcharge, even when it means they lose long term steady business.
Not smart/ |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| cb400 wrote: |
I've lived in China also so I understand what your saying. But the VN are different, they would rather a foreigner walk away buying nothing, that sell at the same price as a VN. Here in Hanoi, they rip off other VN's who are not from Hanoi also. This is a face issue. If they sell to a foreigner for the same price they would lose face in front of their peers and staff...this was explained to me by several Vietnamese people I work with. It really goes to explain why this country is so backwards and the majority of the people are poor...having 0$ is better if you still have 'face' that having 100$ and no 'face'. |
I've experienced that as well in Vietnam and the stupidity of it is pretty evident. However, it seems that it is more of a 'northern' thing to me. It happened to me in Hanoi all the time, but it's not such a big deal, at least in my experience, down in Saigon. |
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: |
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True Hanoians are a breed apart.  |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Time will tell if Vietnam can actually do something in a professional way, and if the charming, warm, hospitable and honest citizens of Vietnam can show any integrity at all when it comes to foreigners. I certainly won't be here to see it.
Tam biet. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
Time will tell if Vietnam can actually do something in a professional way, and if the charming, warm, hospitable and honest citizens of Vietnam can show any integrity at all when it comes to foreigners. I certainly won't be here to see it.
Tam biet. |
From the recent tone of your posts, it sounds like it was a long time coming. Best of luck to you wherever you end up. If you plan to continue teaching abroad please keep us informed as to the teaching situation in your new country of choice. |
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| I've experienced that as well in Vietnam and the stupidity of it is pretty evident. However, it seems that it is more of a 'northern' thing to me. It happened to me in Hanoi all the time, but it's not such a big deal, at least in my experience, down in Saigon. |
That was my experience also. I travelled down the country and noticed that the price I was quoted first got more and more sensible the closer I got to Saigon, to the point where it no longer mattered if I forgot to ask the price in advance.
I've been to Thailand, and I would agree that there are just as many scams as there are in Vietnam. What I would say, however, is that they're simply better at it. If you're obviously not going for something, they'll be polite about it and wish you a good day. I suspect that a lot of people who get scammed in Thailand don't even know about it. In Vietnam, it can end up in a heated confrontation that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Things like suddenly changing an agreed price aren't even sophisticated enough to be called scams. Other countries are perhaps also better at ensuring a nice atmosphere for tourists on the surface. So there are always areas where people can go to get away from hawkers and motorbikes. In Saigon, you can't even get away from them by going into a restaurant in the tourist areas. I've always thought that the Bui Vien area of Saigon should be pedestrianised, for example. It would be so much more pleasant. |
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