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| Should demo lessons of an hour's duration be free? |
| yes |
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14% |
[ 1 ] |
| No |
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85% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 7 |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Im finding myself agreeing with cb on almost everything. Qualifications have nothing to do with whoever is hiring you. Its their school and they can run the interview any way they like. Your pride is the only issue here.
And anyone who has done TESOL training should know how to give mock lessons to native speaking staff. I did these dozens of times during my degree courses. And its a big part of the CELTA too. |
Dozens, suggests more than two, so I would assume a large part of your degree consisted of giving at least 36 mock lessons to native staff. I would let my pride get in the way of getting involved in a degree programme like that too...And, I would also be very weary of advertising a training course for the sole purpose of giving away free hour demo lessons, to again, native staff - Admittedly, this is about as much good as your gold standard TEFL tin pot cert has given you.
Good luck in your ESL career.
=HIC= |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| vabeckele wrote: |
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Im finding myself agreeing with cb on almost everything. Qualifications have nothing to do with whoever is hiring you. Its their school and they can run the interview any way they like. Your pride is the only issue here.
And anyone who has done TESOL training should know how to give mock lessons to native speaking staff. I did these dozens of times during my degree courses. And its a big part of the CELTA too. |
Dozens, suggests more than two, so I would assume a large part of your degree consisted of giving at least 36 mock lessons to native staff. I would let my pride get in the way of getting involved in a degree programme like that too...And, I would also be very weary of advertising a training course for the sole purpose of giving away free hour demo lessons, to again, native staff - Admittedly, this is about as much good as your gold standard TEFL tin pot cert has given you.
Good luck in your ESL career.
=HIC= |
There's no need to make snide comments just because someone disagrees with your opinion. In my experience, it's usually those who somehow feel threatened when they have to resort to these types 'arguments.'
You said you would let your pride get in the way of studying a degree that requires to you to give mock lessons to native speakers. I've never heard of a degree program or a serious certification course that doesn't have these types of lessons as part of the requirements to pass. I have both a degree and credible certificate (not the CELTA), and in both the students were asked to teach mock lessons both to the whole class as well as a smaller session with 2 - 3 professors/instructors. The only thing I could think of that doesn't require this is perhaps a Master's TESOL program that is based 100% on theory and methodology. Or perhaps a useless online TEFL Certificate.
I do find it tiresome that many people use the forums to simply complain about things they are unhappy about. I think it spreads a lot of disinformation. Demo lessons are good example of this. While I don't think you should be forced into doing full class' demo lesson for no pay, (if you're asked to teach a full class to real students, then if you get the job you should be paid for it) I think many of the people who are complaining about them are taking it to too far of an extreme.
Demo lessons are a large part of the EFL interviewing process. While it might not be as prevalent in Vietnam as it is in other places of the world. We've heard enough examples to know that it does happen here on fairly regular basis. In the other thread people have mentioned that even places like RMIT occasionally ask for them.
Like I said in the other thread, many teachers who have lived in Vietnam for a long time seem to be a bit spoiled by the state of affairs here and lack of professionalism in the hiring process. There seems to be an attitude that if you have the 'right' credentials or experience you should just be able to waltz in, and the school should kiss your feet and beg you to work for them. It's as if some people feel they are doing the school a favor by working for them, when in reality it's the school who is employing them. If anyone is doing any favors, it would be the school by agreeing to hire such a self-entitled teacher.
If you look in to teaching in Europe, Japan, or the Middle East you'd see quite a few discussions on demo lessons and how to best prepare for them.
I'm going to try to not make too many assumptions about your training, but I graduated from my university with a degree in TESOL about 5 years ago. Even that recently, my professors often explained that the hiring process would likely involve giving a demo lesson to either real students or a mock lesson to the hiring staff.
I'm sorry if I offended you by saying that most people who have training in EFL know how to give these lessons fairly easily, but that's my honest opinion. Most professional teachers I know wouldn't even bat an eye at this kind of request (although the full hour is a bit strange). It's usually the backpackers/degreeless/online certificate holders who are confused by the concept. "I'm supposed to give an English lesson to a class of 2 native speakers? How do I do that?"
CB hit the nail on head when he said it comes down to whether you want the job or not. If you want the job, you'll do the demo and possibly negotiate compensation for it. If it's too much trouble for you, then just skip it. But complaining afterwards about how horrible it is that someone asked you to do a demo is a little silly in my opinion. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| vabeckele wrote: |
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Im finding myself agreeing with cb on almost everything. Qualifications have nothing to do with whoever is hiring you. Its their school and they can run the interview any way they like. Your pride is the only issue here.
And anyone who has done TESOL training should know how to give mock lessons to native speaking staff. I did these dozens of times during my degree courses. And its a big part of the CELTA too. |
Dozens, suggests more than two, so I would assume a large part of your degree consisted of giving at least 36 mock lessons to native staff. I would let my pride get in the way of getting involved in a degree programme like that too...And, I would also be very weary of advertising a training course for the sole purpose of giving away free hour demo lessons, to again, native staff - Admittedly, this is about as much good as your gold standard TEFL tin pot cert has given you.
Good luck in your ESL career.
=HIC= |
There's no need to make snide comments just because someone disagrees with your opinion. In my experience, it's usually those who somehow feel threatened when they have to resort to these types 'arguments.'
You said you would let your pride get in the way of studying a degree that requires to you to give mock lessons to native speakers. I've never heard of a degree program or a serious certification course that doesn't have these types of lessons as part of the requirements to pass. I have both a degree and credible certificate (not the CELTA), and in both the students were asked to teach mock lessons both to the whole class as well as a smaller session with 2 - 3 professors/instructors. The only thing I could think of that doesn't require this is perhaps a Master's TESOL program that is based 100% on theory and methodology. Or perhaps a useless online TEFL Certificate.
I do find it tiresome that many people use the forums to simply complain about things they are unhappy about. I think it spreads a lot of disinformation. Demo lessons are good example of this. While I don't think you should be forced into doing full class' demo lesson for no pay, (if you're asked to teach a full class to real students, then if you get the job you should be paid for it) I think many of the people who are complaining about them are taking it to too far of an extreme.
Demo lessons are a large part of the EFL interviewing process. While it might not be as prevalent in Vietnam as it is in other places of the world. We've heard enough examples to know that it does happen here on fairly regular basis. In the other thread people have mentioned that even places like RMIT occasionally ask for them.
Like I said in the other thread, many teachers who have lived in Vietnam for a long time seem to be a bit spoiled by the state of affairs here and lack of professionalism in the hiring process. There seems to be an attitude that if you have the 'right' credentials or experience you should just be able to waltz in, and the school should kiss your feet and beg you to work for them. It's as if some people feel they are doing the school a favor by working for them, when in reality it's the school who is employing them. If anyone is doing any favors, it would be the school by agreeing to hire such a self-entitled teacher.
If you look in to teaching in Europe, Japan, or the Middle East you'd see quite a few discussions on demo lessons and how to best prepare for them.
I'm going to try to not make too many assumptions about your training, but I graduated from my university with a degree in TESOL about 5 years ago. Even that recently, my professors often explained that the hiring process would likely involve giving a demo lesson to either real students or a mock lesson to the hiring staff.
I'm sorry if I offended you by saying that most people who have training in EFL know how to give these lessons fairly easily, but that's my honest opinion. Most professional teachers I know wouldn't even bat an eye at this kind of request (although the full hour is a bit strange). It's usually the backpackers/degreeless/online certificate holders who are confused by the concept. "I'm supposed to give an English lesson to a class of 2 native speakers? How do I do that?"
CB hit the nail on head when he said it comes down to whether you want the job or not. If you want the job, you'll do the demo and possibly negotiate compensation for it. If it's too much trouble for you, then just skip it. But complaining afterwards about how horrible it is that someone asked you to do a demo is a little silly in my opinion. |
My comments were not snidey; it is honestly how I feel.
I still do not understand you, I too am sorry about this. Especially when you have quite obviously invested a lot of time getting your master's in TESOL.
Threatened? Yes, when my livelihood is threatened I guess that would directly threaten me. My principles hold fast, sometimes to the point of me hurting myself and my immediate family and friends. I am silly that way. I have never been asked by any European university to give demo lessons for their hiring staff, but I guess things are different in China, Cambodia and Laos.
One last thing. If I am to TEACH any class, they WILL learn something and I WILL get paid for it. Standing in front of disinterested staff with the sole intention of watching me teach? into the ether is a joke. So much so I feel affronted. Please explain to me what the purpose of this is? If I wanted to be a stand up comedian (oops) I would have chosen differently.
One time I asked two directors, who had asked me to TEACH for them, to be seven year olds and I gave them flashcards to point out the colours and repeat T-R-A-I-N- after me. That was funny and I THEN walked out. They didn't want to be taught, why I wonder? |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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What's the purpose of a demo lesson? Where should I start?
-People can put together a good resume but may have no idea how to interact with students in a classroom setting.
-To see how a teacher reacts to specific circumstances in a classroom setting
-To see if the teacher's teaching style is in synch with the school's vision and purpose
-To give a nervous teacher a chance to prove themselves when they gave a poor interview
-Are you activities boring or delivered poorly?
-Do you need more training before you're ready to be thrown into a classroom?
-Are your activities thought out enough to be launched well, stand up to student's confusion, executed properly to be effective?
-Can the teacher sequence a lesson properly?
-Is he just going to just stand up and start 'teaching' because no matter what he does he thinks the students will 'learn' something 
These are just off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone who does the hiring and interviews for a school could shed even more light on the subject.
Your example of the two director putting themselves in the position of being 7 year old children and doing some activities for them is actually quite a common situation. You felt ridiculous and walked out because apparently you have no training in how to do this.
I should also point out that this mock lesson training is not limited to EFL degrees either. It's common for Education degrees as well. Elementary Education degrees have students give mock lessons like the one you described every few weeks.
Perhaps this is the difference between trained teachers and people who have unrelated degrees... |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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All of this may be all well and good if you are at school being instructed or have actual students to teach. Otherwise it is like masturbation; not really going anywhere.
I guess all of us university lecturers out there are all misinformed idiots, oh well. Did I forget the ball toss?
If an employer needs to see a demo lesson after looking at my background...
I will not be responding to the great ESL methodology handbook anymore.
Peace be with you.
p.s. I just asked my doctor to give me a free examination for me to asses her suitability.
p.p.s. Tomorrow I will ask my chiropractor to fix up me for free. Just for me to find out if she is ok. |
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:04 am Post subject: |
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again in simple format:
1. You want the job. They want a demo. Do the demo, do a great job and try to negotiate more money.
2. The job is nothing special and the school shows a lack of professionalism, skip and tell them why.
Note:
As I stated before I do have new teachers do demos or if I am not sure about them. You would be amazed regarding the number of BS resumes out there, and I think it is a ask.
For experienced teachers, I normal do not ask for a demo but I will observe their class after a week or 2. I do not observe a new teach on their first class as it is unnecessary stress and most first classes are crap for us. I rather give them a bit of time to know the students and school before doing an observation.
Like I said go with your gut. If the demo with staff is causing concern, then skip. If not do it and see what happens. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| cb400 wrote: |
again in simple format:
1. You want the job. They want a demo. Do the demo, do a great job and try to negotiate more money.
2. The job is nothing special and the school shows a lack of professionalism, skip and tell them why.
Note:
As I stated before I do have new teachers do demos or if I am not sure about them. You would be amazed regarding the number of BS resumes out there, and I think it is a ask.
For experienced teachers, I normal do not ask for a demo but I will observe their class after a week or 2. I do not observe a new teach on their first class as it is unnecessary stress and most first classes are crap for us. I rather give them a bit of time to know the students and school before doing an observation.
Like I said go with your gut. If the demo with staff is causing concern, then skip. If not do it and see what happens. |
I cannot keep on repeating myself. Yes, I guess if anyone needs a job that badly...
I find it quite incomprehensible a hiring manager finds it more expedient to assess a potential candidate's suitability through artificial demo lessons. In this day and age of communications technology it would not be difficult to verify education and history backgrounds of applicants.
I agree 100 percent on observation. This is the way to go for any self respecting school. Demo lessons are, in themselves, are a good idea, but to set up the proper parameters and staff for every teacher walking in off the street in Asia is an expensive waste of time (or a scam). I would contend this is why a teaching degree, PGCE (QTS) or a TEFL cert comes into their own as it gives an employer evidence a teacher to have have basic classroom knowledge.
Best wishes,
Vab |
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Tigerstyleone
Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:06 am Post subject: |
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MOD EDIT
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=77552
Last edited by Tigerstyleone on Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:12 am Post subject: demo lesson |
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Wow, this issue has REALLY been flogged. Somebody mentioned modern communication equipment in this day and age (starting to sound like an IELTS framework), let me make a suggestion. Actually, this specifically addresses the demo lesson, and then goes into the general question of job search, which may belong somewhere else, but as it is related, here goes.
First, just set up your little portable camera thingy and record a lesson one fine day, of course, do it with one of your more successful groups when you have some of your best materials, but you should be able to figure all that part out with no problem.
Then, when asked about a demo lesson, you tell the guys, oh, you know what, I am so serious about my work, I actually record my own lessons sometimes so I can review them, using this as a tool for my own improvement (not a bad idea in its own right). I will be happy to give you a copy. While this is not quite the same as doing one with the materials they may give you, much of the time they want to see what you come up with one on your own, and regardless, it pretty much proves what you are really like in real life. If that is not good enough for them, maybe then it gives you a little more assurance that you were reasonable on your end, and the fact that they wanted even more means maybe they were wasting your time. Maybe.
Getting to the general on this, I posted some detail on the subject of job search a while back, eventually it morphs into something else, but I tried to make the point that not many of our guys really show imagination, professionalism and advanced communications skills in their employment packages. So, the note of having this demo lesson available for their review could be made on your resume, which would then more or less preempt the question, and may at the same time prove your seriousness.
Where folks really differed with me on this is adding this kind of polish to ones employment package. I have found that a display that goes beyond what the average job seeker sends in can seriously increase the interest in you as prospect. Examples would be the above mentioned video (offered, not necessarily sent in), parts of some of your academic writings that related to teaching English, sample recordings you have created in your employment (or independently for your students), even scores you have achieved on English tests. This idea was disparaged by some of the regulars a couple of years ago, but in real life, a perfect all around 9 on IELTS, 990 on TOEIC or 667 on TOEFL sure gets the attention of the VN hiring manager. Not only does it prove your skill with English, but it shows initiative in trying to reach a deeper understanding of what the students must go thru in these courses, as well as adding to your insight into the search for strategies for success in these tests.
I am sure there are many other creative ways you can separate yourself from the pack on your employment package. For those of you who do not like these ideas, fine, if you are doing okay with your career, no need to change what you are doing. But it is my observation that almost all of the resumes/packages coming in by mail or by hand lack professionalism and imagination.
There is a possible downside to this, as has been observed recently, I think it was on a thread referencing a well known company's hiring practices. Some of these places really seek a profile, which is a young graduate, maybe new to the country, maybe someone that is easily controlled, maybe someone who really needs the money and will put up with unreasonable situations due to this need. The truly skilled professional can send his package in there and likely will never get a response. If he dumbed it down, he might. So I can see the point of NOT showing your best stuff to everyone. I think it boils down to what kind of work you really want to do, and how able you are to wait it out between jobs. Those of us who are living payday to payday have to worry about survival first. While those guys may read DAVES, I get the feeling that very few of them ever post, and so these discussions (and opinions) that develop are really most relevant for just a small percentage of folks actually working here as teachers. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Nice post. Is it 'A mark-in-Saigon' or 'Mark....
That is a good idea. It seems more and more teachers are posting a lot of lessons on YouTube and such nowadays. I heard of one teacher in Thailand videoing himself giving lessons for a TEFL cert to satisfy his practical teaching component and passed (he sent them in as CDs). It would be a nice touch to be able to demonstrate on the spot 'a live lesson'.
Again, a nice post and good advice. |
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