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manipani
Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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"Different Points of View" sticky:
"Calling or implying a member is a troll, scare or rumor monger or advising someone not to post such comments or to leave this board are both contentious and arrogant and fall in the totally unacceptable range. They are also sure ways for members to promptly become ex-members.
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Members who violate this policy statement will be sanctioned. Sanctions include permanent banning along with the ex-member's ISPs." |
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michi gnome
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Dokdo
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I am amazed at how resigned and really how little the Japanese are about this. My Mother in law is from Snedai, and well all my wife's family is. They don't seem to care that this disaster might break Japan's econ, or at least ruin a large area of Japan like Chernobyl. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| michi gnome wrote: |
| Pitarou: who/what would you say is causing harm here? The messenger, or the reality of the situation? |
Since manipani has gone quiet, and since this question was addressed directly to me, I'll assume it's safe to crawl back out of the woodwork.
I started another thread discussing the article. But since you ask, here are my thoughts:
Of course, the latest news has led me to reassess the situation. I'm certainly more nervous than I was - the risk of seafood contamination looks high - but, to my knowledge, no serious seafood contamination has been detected yet. I'd feel safer if I had some evidence that the seafood monitoring system was safe and wasn't vulnerable to manipulation. If anybody has info on that, I'd like to hear about it.
Your question about the harm is an interesting one. Of course, the greatest harm was caused by those who allowed the accident to happen in the first place. Setting that aside, I think the greatest harm now is being done by those who are not releasing timely, accurate information, because it makes it unnecessarily hard for us ordinary folk to make a sensible risk assessment.
Without the facts, the doom-mongers will assume the worst, and will ring alarm bells all day and night.
Without the facts, the pooh-poohers will assume that everything is fine until they hear otherwise.
In hindsight, I was too far in the pooh-poohers camp. But I'm still a long way from coming over to manipani's view of the world.
My gripes with manipani were twofold:
1. He[1] pissed me off by non-too-subtly suggesting that I had some kind of creepy agenda. (Of course, I pissed him off too. Let's call that touché.)
2. More seriously, he was asserting as facts things that were, at best, highly speculative. Anybody giving him some credence would have come away with a distorted and unhelpful view of the whole affair.
Please note that I invited manipani to cite some evidence to back up his claims, but he declined. Since then, events have thrown evidence into our laps that make me look a little more wrong, and manipani a little more right, but I still think my basic complaints about manipani's approach are sound.
rx22: I don't propose to speak for your mother-in-law, but it's a commonly observed phenomenon that those who live closest to the source of hazard profess to be not in the least worried about it. Presumably, because if they did let themselves worry about it, they couldn't carry on with their daily lives.
[1] Assuming manipani is male. |
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michi gnome
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Dokdo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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rxk:
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| They don't seem to care that this disaster might break Japan's econ, or at least ruin a large area of Japan like Chernobyl. |
It's interesting to hear about the reactions (or lack of) there. People have to go on with their day-to-day lives, & just hope for the best, I suppose. I'm surprised though how many seem content to either ignore it, or just accept the official narrative, and not do any research of their own.
It seems a common reaction to compare this disaster to Chernobyl, but I'm not sure it's a good comparison. It doesn't look like there will be a "clean-up" or "containment" here. The genie is out of the bottle, and the planet is in uncharted territory. It was possible to build a cement structure around Chernobyl. That doesn't appear possible here. Reports are that the cores inside the reactors have melted through the shells into the ground. The "experts" don't have a freaking clue what to do.
The cost in dollars may be the least of our concerns. What about the cost to ocean life, and the health of the entire planet? As it looks now, this thing could continue spiraling out of control for years/decades... |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| michi gnome wrote: |
| rxb wrote: |
| They don't seem to care that this disaster might break Japan's econ, or at least ruin a large area of Japan like Chernobyl. |
It seems a common reaction to compare this disaster to Chernobyl, but I'm not sure it's a good comparison. It doesn't look like there will be a "clean-up" or "containment" here. The genie is out of the bottle, and the planet is in uncharted territory. |
No disrespect intended -- you're just quoting from the sources you linked to earlier -- but any source that claims Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl without a detailed rationale (and I don't mean just cherry picking) should be viewed with skepticism.
As matters stand now, in terms of environmental contamination with radioactive materials, Fukushima is still much smaller than Chernobyl. Chernobyl was so bad that livestock reared in Wales was condemned as unfit for human consumption.
Comparison of Fukushima and Chernobyl nuclear accidents. |
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michi gnome
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Dokdo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Not trying to diminish the horrific effects of Chernobyl & it's aftermath. My point is that with the Fukushima disaster, we are in uncharted territory.
One interesting fact to note: the sarchophagus that contains Chernobyl was built 6 months after the accident. (though structure has deteriorated and they have needed to update it since).
The Fukushima meltdown has continued, without containment (or a basic plan for what to do), for over 2 years now. Radioactive water has been flowing into the ocean, and into the ground, this entire time. How about the effects into the air/atmosphere?
I would also question the sources from the wikipedia link you provided. The references date mostly from 2011, and only several from May, 2012. Over a year ago, and a lot of info has come to light in the past year. Many of the references are the government's and TEPCO's own reports, so certainly very questionable.
Once again, not downplaying Chernobyl. My point is that Fukushima has potential to be worse, over the long term, for the eco-system & health of the entire planet. I would be glad to be wrong, of course. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| michi gnome wrote: |
The Fukushima meltdown has continued, without containment (or a basic plan for what to do), for over 2 years now. Radioactive water has been flowing into the ocean, and into the ground, this entire time. How about the effects into the air/atmosphere?
I would also question the sources from the wikipedia link you provided. The references date mostly from 2011, and only several from May, 2012. Over a year ago, and a lot of info has come to light in the past year. |
Fair point. And you forgot to mention that there was a lot more fuel in the Fukshima reactors than in Chernobyl.
I think ongoing atmospheric effects aren't an issue. I know of no reason why we might expect new radioactive plumes, and if there were one, I thing somebody with a geiger counter would have spotted it by now. Usual disclaimer: I'm not an expert, and don't pretend to be. If anybody can point to alternative evidence etc. etc.
Anyway, at least we're discussing the evidence. A huge improvement over the mudslinging that things degenerated into earlier. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| michi gnome wrote: |
| rxb wrote: |
| They don't seem to care that this disaster might break Japan's econ, or at least ruin a large area of Japan like Chernobyl. |
It seems a common reaction to compare this disaster to Chernobyl, but I'm not sure it's a good comparison. It doesn't look like there will be a "clean-up" or "containment" here. The genie is out of the bottle, and the planet is in uncharted territory. |
No disrespect intended -- you're just quoting from the sources you linked to earlier -- but any source that claims Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl without a detailed rationale (and I don't mean just cherry picking) should be viewed with skepticism.
As matters stand now, in terms of environmental contamination with radioactive materials, Fukushima is still much smaller than Chernobyl. Chernobyl was so bad that livestock reared in Wales was condemned as unfit for human consumption.
Comparison of Fukushima and Chernobyl nuclear accidents. |
I said COULD be. Since it is still an on going concern. I didn't say it was. Also, the 1,600 tons of rods just sitting around, does make me think this has the possibility to be worse.
I am not saying that is is worse, but as I said, there might be an area that is cordoned off, like Chernobyl |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| Pitarou wrote: |
| ... any source that claims Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl without a detailed rationale (and I don't mean just cherry picking) should be viewed with skepticism. |
I said COULD be. Since it is still an on going concern. I didn't say it was. Also, the 1,600 tons of rods just sitting around, does make me think this has the possibility to be worse. |
I was picking more on michi gnome than on you, rx22.
| rx22 wrote: |
| I am not saying that is is worse, but as I said, there might be an area that is cordoned off, like Chernobyl |
I don't quite understand you. Do you mean land might be cordoned off in future? It already is! |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
| Pitarou wrote: |
| ... any source that claims Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl without a detailed rationale (and I don't mean just cherry picking) should be viewed with skepticism. |
I said COULD be. Since it is still an on going concern. I didn't say it was. Also, the 1,600 tons of rods just sitting around, does make me think this has the possibility to be worse. |
I was picking more on michi gnome than on you, rx22.
| rx22 wrote: |
| I am not saying that is is worse, but as I said, there might be an area that is cordoned off, like Chernobyl |
I don't quite understand you. Do you mean land might be cordoned off in future? It already is! |
OK. Gotcha.
Yes there is a nogo zone. But if there are any more eruptions, and with all the rods in there, there could be an even bigger nogo zone. |
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