Job Discussion Forums

[Expat101]

Prince Saud bin Abdul Mohsen said, 'my daughter has a new puppy. Her name is Shisha, a teacup poodle. Everybody is excited about it except my wife. She hates her in the house.'
You can hear the prince speaking enthusiastically about the puppy starting at 21 minutes.

Inside the Saudi Kingdom (BBC Documentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au9Aqd_-2hc

Now all that nonsense about Muslims hating dogs can stop.

[scot47]

Is this thread heading the same way as that other one ?

[johnslat]

The Hadiths are not especially fond of dogs:

"Hadith - Bukhari 3:515, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever keeps a dog, one Qirat of the reward of his good deeds is deducted daily, unless the dog is used for guarding a farm or cattle." Abu Huraira (in another narration) said from the Prophet, "unless it is used for guarding sheep or farms, or for hunting." Narrated Abu Hazim from Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A dog for guarding cattle or for hunting."

Hadith - Muslim, Narrated Maymunah

One morning Allah's Messenger was silent with grief. Maymunah said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me last night, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises; and Allah's Messenger spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He gave an order and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it on the place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. So the very next morning he commanded the dogs to be killed. He announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog used for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens).

Hadith - Mishkat, Transmitted by Abu Dawud and Darimi

The Prophet said, "Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one." [Muslim, Narrated AbuDharr: "...The black dog is a devil."]


Hadith - Muwatta 2.36

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah said, "If a dog drinks from your vessel, wash it seven times."

"Do not allow a dog in your house as a pet or any other non-necessary reason.

When you hear a dog bark at night, say "audhu billah" ("I seek refuge in Allah").

Do not own a dog unless used for hunting, or as a guard dog to people or animals such as cattle, or any other necessary reason such as a help to the blind, etc.

It is no sin to kill a rabid dog, even in the Masjid

If using a dog for hunting, always say "Bismillah" (In the Name of Allah) before releasing it to catch prey. If another dog may have killed the animal other than the one you said "Bismillah" on, then do not eat the animal.

Kill a dog that is pure black. Take the pure black dog to the dog pound; they automatically "put down" (i.e. "put to sleep", kill) a dog after a few weeks of no-one claiming the dog.

Do not sell a dog for a price.

Have mercy on a dog (that is not pure black) who needs help to survive."


On the other hand:

"Hadith - Bukhari 4:538, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."

http://muttaqun.com/dogs.html

I think it's going to take more than one prince's daughter's owning a dog to overcome the deep-seated Saudi belief that dogs are unclean.

By the way, I had a dog in the Kingdom, from 1980 to 1984.

Regards,
John

[scot47]

My daughter persuaded me to get a dog when we lived in the Saudi Arabian Airlines Compound in Khaledeya. Of course the dog soon became my dog since I was around even in school holidays !

We got the dog from Jeddah Vet Clinic, whom provided competent vet care during the remainder of the time we lived there (1996-2002)

[Expat101]

[johnslat]

Dear Expat 101,

Thanks for the link. Have you been to the Kingdom yet? I think you will find - as the article on your link states - that Ms Ingrid Mattson's views do not represent the attitude of many/most Muslims (and this is especially the case in Saudi Arabia - the rebuttal was from South Africa, a place where Islam is generally "more tolerant" than in the Kingdom)

"An article appeared in the Huffington Post ‘What’s up with Muslims and dogs’ written by Ingrid Mattson. She attempts to prove that prohibition of dogs is a cultural issue and has nothing to do with Deen. Ingrid Mattson’s profile states that she is a professor of Islamic studies. Below is the article from Huffington Post.

We had many requests to respond to the article.

Advocate Mufti Emran Vawda has adequately responded to the article rebutting her erroneous claims and expounding the reality of dogs from the Shariah perspective with academic references.

It is very unfortunate that today the claim as professor of Islamic studies has become a title without any merit. This becomes very clear from the texts cited by Advocate Mufti Emran Vawda. Anyone having little knowledge of Ahaadith would have known these Ahaadith referred to in the response. The article makes an enjoyable academic read."

The full rebuttal by Mufti Vawda is much more in line with the reality on the ground in Saudi.

As I mentioned, I actually had a dog in Jeddah (a Shih Tzu) for four years. Personally, I love dogs (and cats) and have two dogs and a cat now in Santa Fe. I am not saying that the antipathy towards dogs is universal among Saudis - but the vast majority, I'd say, would agree with the Mufti's statement rather than with Ms Mattson's.

If you are living on a "Western compound," (I wasn't), you shouldn't have a problem with having a dog since your neighbors won't be Saudis. But
you really do need to be aware of the general attitude among Saudis regarding dogs if you plan to take one or more there.

Regards,
John

[spiral78]

A teacup poodle is hardly a dog at all - tempest about a teacup!

[Expat101]

johnslat, I don't doubt you about the general attitude of Arabs in general about dogs. I also lived in Malaysia and the Malay there were paranoid about dogs. They were so worried about it, they usually refused to rent houses to anyone else but Malays! Most were under the false assumption that they would be going straight to hell if a single dog even touched them!

But to answer your question, yes, I was in Saudi briefly while I was on business in the Middle East. I knew a sponsor in Bahrain who got me in for a short time so I could meet and stay with their lovely family. They were incredibly kind and generous to me! All the Saudis I've ever known have been this way towards me.

I've spent a lot of time with Gulf Arabs, Palestinians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians and Iraqis. While I don't like ALL of them, many of them have been more than kind to me! I have so many accounts of generosity! This goes so way far above and beyond the general hospitality one typically gets in a Western or Asian culture!

[Expat101]

[johnslat]

I tried to tell Customs in Jeddah that my Shih Tzu was a "hunting dog." I had all the required papers, including a permission letter from the Saudi embassy in Washington D.C.

None of it cut any ice with Customs; they "confiscated" the dog and were going to ship it back.

Thank Allah for wasta - the Director of the Jeddah IPA made a phone call and the dog was let in.


Regards,
John

[Expat101]

Who hunts with a Shih Tzu? That's probably what they were thinking. Why didn't you classify it as a guard dog? My neighbors have one and it charges out of the home at people who walk buy. The dog doesn't stop barking until they are far away. I've been concerned quite few times that it would attack me.

[johnslat]

I tried guard dog, too, but that didn't go over any better. They didn't (and I believe still don't) allow "small dogs" in.

"1. Dogs:
a. only watch dogs, hunting dogs, seeing-eye dogs for the blind and hearing dogs for deaf persons are permitted into Saudi Arabia. The purpose of use of such dogs must be shown in a veterinary certificate. Permission must be obtained prior to arrival from either a consulate/embassy of Saudi Arabia or the relevant government department in Saudi Arabia;
b. other dogs (whether as baggage or as cargo) are prohibited in case of import or in transit if leaving the airport. However, the possibility does exist for the authorities to grant incidental exemptions from this prohibition, with the exception of certain breeds of dogs that are totally forbidden.
Failure to comply with the correct import procedure will result in serious consequences, with the dog being returned by first available flight."

http://www.iatatravelcentre.com/SA-Saudi-Arabia-customs-currency-airport-tax-regulations-details.htm

Without wasta, Chu Lai (the dog's name) would have been shipped back.

Have you ever been in Saudi? Are you there now?

Regards,
John

[Expat101]

I just found this interesting link: http://saudi-arabia.europuppy.com/ Sounds like they mostly sell dogs in Saudi.

[johnslat]

Dear Expat101,

Good luck - but hope you won't need it. All our pets (at present two dogs and a cat) have been "rescues."

Regards,
John