Job Discussion Forums

[dean_a_jones]

[Denim-Maniac]

The worlds worst hangover is going to prevent me from posting at length ... but Id have to say that engaging students in meaningful communication is far more likely to lead to language learning than memorising dialogues. Although memory plays a part in learning anything, practice tends to play a far bigger part ... and when the practice is meaningful I think more learning can take place.

[choudoufu]

memorization is what the chinese do best.

that's what they've trained for. that is the basis of their entire edumacational
system. memorize 5000 characters, memorize 500 sentence structures.
memorize formulas (formulae?). lather, rinse, repeat.

it's amazing how quickly they can memorize a long text, then recite it.
but that's about it. very rarely is there any comprehension, just noises.
most are unable to answer simple questions about the text they just recited.

[FreakingTea]

[Non Sequitur]

A bit more than 'partially solved' freaking tea.
Many students arrive at uni with an idea that English is a bit of code (chant as another called it).
Where we add value is enlightening the student to its possibilities as a tool.
I normally refrain from TTT but when I need a little homily I tell students that the skills they now have would enable them to travel safely in an English-speaking country, order a meal, interact with officialdom and visit a doctor.
My tourism related students generally beam when they pick up on that.
I take care to tell them that English majors in the big schools may know more about Eng Lit, but are generally no better conversationalists.
In a self-prepared skit, they can crack jokes which the FT will chortle at, josh their classmates, express emotions etc etc.

[Denim-Maniac]

[Bud Powell]

When I taught first-year freshman oral English, there was no time for anything but for the students to spout a two or three minute collection of words which they pronounced very well. I thought that they had absolutely NO understanding of what they were saying. However, in time, when I'd see them on campus, I'd hear complaints that the class was too much like their classes taught by Chinese teachers.

Their complaints (maybe their ability to complain and create a cohesive argument) told me that they had a measurable mastery of English. That was when I began developing simple situational dialogues that required them to solve some sort of problem. Through the years, I found that some of the weakest students rose to the occasion and actually tried to think analytically and critically and (in time) spontaneously.

At the beginning of this thread, I thought that the discourse would be just a vehement exchange of polarized arguments for and against memorization. It hasn't.

I think that what is being expressed in different ways is frustration with so many students' willingness and desire to fall back into levels in which they feel comfortable: mind-numbing memorization.

Even on the university level, my students arrived at class early to recite their reading assignment; more students would enter the classroom, and they'd join the prayer group. By the time the bell rang for class to begin, they were all reciting together as if they were being led to to recite in unison. During my first semester in China, I didn't know how to deal with it until one morning, I asked a student to tell me what she had studied in preparation for class. She began reciting -- verbatim--- the entire first page of the assigned chapter. For that particular class (history) I began making an assignment that thwarted their desire to memorize. I'd tell them to find the most important ideas in a section of a chapter. That derailed the memorization trap and led them to actual critical thinking. They actually came to class early to discuss among themselves possible answers to the questions that they thought I might ask. That's when I knew that they were making the transition to critical thought.

[teachingld2004]

I was just judging a speech contest. First of all, not one person had good pronunciation. Granted, these were kids, but still. They gave small speeches that they memorized from their books.

"Hello my name is _______________ I like singing and dancing. When I get home from school I do my homework I finish my home work and I walk my puppy. My puppy is so cute. At night I eat dinner with my family. ..." Etc You get the idea.

I asked "What do you do when you finish your home work." No reply

I asked ""What do you do at night?" No reply.

The Chinese teachers very happily have them memorize, but they do not explain what things mean. And these speeches are taken right out of the books!!.

I teach in University. I was just doing this to help a friend. But I have the same problem many times at the beginning of the term. I always have my students give speeches. I tell them if they can not answer my questions they do not get credit for the speech.

P.S. They may not follow instructions with their first speech, but I promise you, they do better as the term goes on.

Memorization with out understanding is nothing. When we do a skit, that is when they memorize.

[roadwalker]

I've started writing my own dialogues for this term instead of correcting the dialogues in the books. Memorizing the dialogues in the books would mostly be useless, but I think there is a place for dialogues in an oral English class. I still remember short bits from high school French and English classes. I think memorized chunks are good for helping them use patterns.

After dialogues though, the students should be given a chance to create scenes or situations using similar vocabulary. Or have discussions around the vocabulary used in the dialogue. I notice my stronger students have little problem with that, while others use the dialogue as a pattern much more strictly. That's ok, but I will try to nudge those latter students a bit. If it builds confidence, don't discount it out of hand.

[muffintop]

A class I have just memorized a short dialogue for school...which doesn't start until tomorrow.

Boy: Do you use chopsticks in England?
Girl: No, we don't. They are hard for English people. We use a knife and fork.
Boy: Oh, it's hard for Chinese people.
Girl: It's easy for English people.

Boy: Do you use chopsticks in England?
Girl: No, we don't. We use a knife and fork.

I changed the question to....
Do you use a knife and fork in China?
......
.....
.....
...........and got blank stares for 5 minutes.

Whoever said they only learn how to make English noises is spot on. Granted these are kids but....wow.

[beckyshaile]

[Sashadroogie]

Memory is of course crucial to language learning. But memorising lengthy tracts of English isn't going to do much for Chinese learners. Anybody who works as an IELTS examiner will comfirm that many Chinese candidates will attempt to give a rehearsed speech, regardless of the question, only to be totally thrown by the examiner interrupting them with a question. They usually cannot respond very well. Hence the typically low marks they get.

[dean_a_jones]

[Shroob]

[Non Sequitur]