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kpjf

Joined: 18 Jan 2012 Posts: 385
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Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:15 pm Post subject: Usefulness of PGCE per se |
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Hi
I come from the UK and I was thinking about doing a PGCE in Spanish in the UK (PGCE = Postgraduate Certificate in Education = To become a certified teacher), but my long-term goal is really to teach English as a foreign language around the world. My other option is to do a Master's in TESOL (MSc). My question essentially is: do people think a PGCE per se is useful in countries in Asia or in parts of Europe (regardless of the subject)?
My doubt is that I'm not sure if a PGCE per se will be useful or only useful if you're going to be teaching that exact subject and of course around the world I'd imagine English to be a lot more in demand than Spanish (I definitely don't want to stay in the UK). Initially I thought doing a PGCE in itself would give me the certified status (after the 1 year needed for QTS) and thus a plus for getting jobs for the fact that I will have studied in university how to teach etc. However, I'm not so sure. Any advice? Would the Master's be better? Of course if the options were there I would be willing to work as a Spanish teacher but thought if I had too much experience teaching Spanish and not EFL it might put me at a disadvantage long-term if I go for EFL jobs.
Any advice appreciated  |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005 Posts: 3292 Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Why not do the PGCE ESOL? (Not sure it or any other PGCE is that interesting academically though). |
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kpjf

Joined: 18 Jan 2012 Posts: 385
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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, I never really thought about that! However, I haven't seen many PGCE in ESOL courses offered in the UK.
In England actually, for a PGCE in foreign languages, a bursary is available, and depending on your degree score, may not only pay for the course fee but also means you'll have some left over to pay for rent etc. This is why I'd planned on doing the languages PGCE in England.
If they offered a PGCE ESOL where I live I'd apply in a shot. |
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PC Parrot
Joined: 11 Dec 2009 Posts: 459 Location: Moral Police Station
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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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If you are going to make a go of it in TEFL you will need as many arrows in your quiver as you can stuff in. I'd say do the PGCE now and if you find that you like TEFL, do the MA TESOL later on.
TEFL can be a pretty unforgiving choice of career and you might find later on down the line that your license to teach Spanish gives you options you would otherwise not have.
The PGCE will give you a good background in education and will give you opportunities to teach TEFL for good money in desirable locations that an MA TESOL alone would not. |
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kpjf

Joined: 18 Jan 2012 Posts: 385
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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
Thanks for the advice. I already have some experience in TEFL, so know it's definitely what I want to do as a job, in spite of its negative aspects! I will definitely do a Master's in TESOL at some point - if not now, then later.
You're definitely right about the arrows in your quiver! I just thought if I want to teach English and spend all this time on a qualification that's just kind of useful, plus I'm in my early 30s and not getting any younger . However, it does seem a necessary requirement in Hong Kong in order to become a NET in terms of going up and up on the payscale (if you don't have a PGCE your pay increase stops at a certain point). |
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PC Parrot
Joined: 11 Dec 2009 Posts: 459 Location: Moral Police Station
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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Not just better pay, but better jobs.
You would have access to jobs in such places as Malaysia, Brunei, and even with the EU in Brussels, that people without a PGCE would not.
Don't let it be that, when you decide you want to start saving money for your future, the Gulf is the only money making route open to you.
At the moment you have the choice of not going down that road.
It would also mean that, should you find yourself washed up on the shores of the UK, you wouldn't have to join the queues for the TEFL soup kitchens. |
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Perilla

Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 792 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:14 am Post subject: |
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I agree with PC Parrot. Best to do the PGCE, and probably best to do it in Spanish rather than English. Pretty much all the best teaching jobs require a PGCE or equivalent. Here in HK for example, a PGCE opens the door to the international schools, the NET scheme and the ESF schools (all high paying employers) but without a PGCE, even if you have an MA TESOL, you won't get paid anything like as much. The same applies mas o menos across the board.
Doing the PGCE in Spanish will still get you a job teaching English in most of the above or elsewhere, plus you'll have the option of teaching Spanish if/when you end up back in the UK. |
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Xie Lin

Joined: 21 Oct 2011 Posts: 731
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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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What they said! Go for it. You will reap the benefits many times over.
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reddevil79

Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 234 Location: Neither here nor there
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Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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As someone who has studied for a PGCE in Modern Languages and then a Masters in Linguistics and TESOL, I would generally agree with what has been said on the thread. Bear in mind though that a lot of the top international schools will want at least two years experience post-PGCE, and doing your NQT is a must, so that’s a three year investment at least.
If you’re 100% sure you want to teach English, then I’m tempted to say go for the Masters, you’ll save time and money. On the one hand it’s reassuring that I do have the PGCE if ever I want to go home to the UK, more doors open. You’ll never know what could happen when you’re abroad that might necessitate your return. On the other, doing a PGCE and then a Masters is quite a commitment in terms of time and cash.
Also consider that the longer you stay teaching in the UK, the harder it might be to leave. Speaking to colleagues, it’s not inconceivable that you might be head of Spanish or a year group after a couple of years; would you be willing to give up the pay and security and hope for the best in Asia? You might be itching to go abroad after three years, but it’s worth considering.
Just be prepared for twists and turns if you go down the PGCE then Masters route, but hey, that’s half the fun.
P.S. Agree with fluffyhamster about the academic side of the PGCE. A lot of the theory I found to be quite ropey and there is far more for emphasis on the practical side of things. |
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kpjf

Joined: 18 Jan 2012 Posts: 385
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Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies everyone
I don't want people to think I'm ignoring their advice but I think I'll do the master's this year and then apply for the PGCE next year. I was actually accepted for both PGCE and master's in TESOL in 2 different universities, and although the university for the PGCE has a pretty good reputation in England some things were putting me off there (next year my plan is to apply to a university in my own city). Furthermore, I was told I have to improve my French (as I'm offering that as a secondary language at lower level), but I'm not so confident teaching a language even to a basic level if my level is at absolute best B1 (in spoken reproduction probably just A2), so I can join a night school whilst doing the Master's. I hear doing a PGCE can be really intensive and stressful and don't see how I could find time to improve my French.
Well, this is my thinking Of course anyone replying might say I'm pretty stupid turning down the PGCE offer! And, I fully realise that if I apply next year I might be rejected.
PC Parrot: regarding the gulf/middle east I hear it's good for pay, but don't know if I'd want to work there. However, who knows, might be good for a while to get good money.
Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought for really worthwhile PGCE subjects it would be ones that are always taught in any school: maths, geography, sciences etc. Am I wrong? Is Spanish really an in demand language in international schools? Of course it's the 3rd most spoken language, but wasn't sure if it was widely taught.
Perilla wrote: |
I agree with PC Parrot. Best to do the PGCE, and probably best to do it in Spanish rather than English. Pretty much all the best teaching jobs require a PGCE or equivalent. Here in HK for example, a PGCE opens the door to the international schools, the NET scheme and the ESF schools (all high paying employers) but without a PGCE, even if you have an MA TESOL, you won't get paid anything like as much. The same applies mas o menos across the board.
Doing the PGCE in Spanish will still get you a job teaching English in most of the above or elsewhere, plus you'll have the option of teaching Spanish if/when you end up back in the UK. |
Perilla, I saw that on the HK NET pay scale, whereby not having the PGCE means your salary stops on scale 20, plus you have less chance of being accepted. To be honest, I really have no desire to teach in the UK in life, yet, who knows what will happen in the future, plus it can get me in to the HK NET programme possibly and good experience in a secondary school, which could be good for future prospects and even better if I loved HK so much that i wanted to stay (and move up the payscale ). |
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kpjf

Joined: 18 Jan 2012 Posts: 385
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Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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reddevil79 wrote: |
As someone who has studied for a PGCE in Modern Languages and then a Masters in Linguistics and TESOL, I would generally agree with what has been said on the thread. Bear in mind though that a lot of the top international schools will want at least two years experience post-PGCE, and doing your NQT is a must, so that’s a three year investment at least.
If you’re 100% sure you want to teach English, then I’m tempted to say go for the Masters, you’ll save time and money. On the one hand it’s reassuring that I do have the PGCE if ever I want to go home to the UK, more doors open. You’ll never know what could happen when you’re abroad that might necessitate your return. On the other, doing a PGCE and then a Masters is quite a commitment in terms of time and cash.
Also consider that the longer you stay teaching in the UK, the harder it might be to leave. Speaking to colleagues, it’s not inconceivable that you might be head of Spanish or a year group after a couple of years; would you be willing to give up the pay and security and hope for the best in Asia? You might be itching to go abroad after three years, but it’s worth considering.
Just be prepared for twists and turns if you go down the PGCE then Masters route, but hey, that’s half the fun.
P.S. Agree with fluffyhamster about the academic side of the PGCE. A lot of the theory I found to be quite ropey and there is far more for emphasis on the practical side of things. |
Thanks a lot for the information. Just out of curiosity which 2 languages did you do?
My plan was really to get the PGCE then do 1 year, then find a job abroad teaching in a secondary school...do you really think 2 years is necessary?
Like I say I definitely don't envisage myself working in the UK, but even if I didn't do a PGCE, what else can you do study wise after a Master's in order to get a good job in EFL that's not a PGCE!? (Apart from a PhD, which I can't afford).
Regarding staying in the UK as far as I know languages aren't studied much in secondary schools with big drops at A-Level - supposedly because the marking is too tough or that students can't get good enough grades compared to other subjects, so I mean are there really good prospects in the UK?
Quote: |
Just be prepared for twists and turns if you go down the PGCE then Masters route, but hey, that’s half the fun. Cool |
And what twists and turns could there be if I go down the Master's then PGCE route?
By the way, if you don't mind me asking, have you gotten any/many jobs abroad directly related to your PGCE?
Thanks. |
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reddevil79

Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 234 Location: Neither here nor there
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I did French and Spanish. I don't think I've ever been hired as a direct result of my PGCE, though it obviously helped when applying for jobs which involved teaching young learners. Now the Masters far outweighs the PGCE, especially as I teach adults.
I don't know if you saw the reports last week, but there has been an upswing in the amount of students taking languages at GCSE:
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/aug/22/gcse-results-2013-science-grades-fall
From the research I did, two years post-PGCE was the minimum required for the good schools. There are a lot of 'international' schools out there, and standards vary greatly, with some accepting students as soon as they have got their PGCE. |
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kpjf

Joined: 18 Jan 2012 Posts: 385
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply.
Seems a bit of a shame not to be utilising your PGCE directly by teaching Spanish/French! But maybe you prefer to teach your mother tongue.
Are you talking 2 years in the UK specifically? I had planned 1 year post-pgce in the UK then maybe finding a post somewhere else (Europe or Asia). I don't know if I can stick 3 years of that in the UK. I mean what's the difference if I had 1 year post-pgce experience then another year in a random country outside the UK teaching Spanish/French for international schools? (Maybe it does matter?)
Thanks a lot for the link (one to mention in the interview!). Ironically, the last article I read said the amount taking languages at A-levels has dropped and now the amount at GCSE is increasing! |
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scot47

Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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It grieves me to agree with the Beplumed Psittacoid, but on this rare occasion, he is right. |
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TwinCentre
Joined: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 273 Location: Mokotow
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Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps the above posters are more up to date than me, I quit TEFL in 2011, but I never really saw any benefits from my PGCE in my 13 years teaching English abroad in 8 different countries (Japan, France, Spain, Germany, Morocco, Malaysia, Poland, Italy).
The British Council liked me having it, but didn't reward me for it, I got £30 more a month from NOVA (remember them?) in Japan for it, apart from that...all I ever heard was 'DELTA, DELTA, DELTA'....
Someone mentioned Malaysia, I worked there but no-one considered my PGCE of much worth, and again, got pushed to do the DELTA.
Of course, you will have the advantage of being able to teach in the UK without going TEFL-side.
I am not saying everyone else isn't right, just wanted to give you my experience as someone who got their PGCE (just) before they went into TEFL. |
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