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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:42 am Post subject: |
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@teenoso, nomad soul: The answer to large classes (which in Asia may be resistant to the teacher stepping back from leading every minute) is to train the students in increasingly student-student if not independent interaction. (I'm not sure this is specifically addressed that much in teacher training, but I recall seeing a 10-week framework in a communicative activities book once. I made a photocopy of the chart, could dig it out). For example, one would go from the self-introduction-style lesson, with its simple A:B exchange and choral drilling and nominating pairs to try it out at the front of the class (latter possibly a bit risky actually, if you don't yet know the students well enough!), to asking them to try it out with the person sitting beside them (and in order to keep the noise down, you could have alternate rows speak while the row beside them monitors and you tiptoe along at least the head or one end of the speaking rows). In subsequent weeks you could then proceed from not-too-demanding pairwork to small group activities (3-or-more-way- interactions), and by the end of this "speaking training" have perhaps come "full circle", with the class (and the individuals within it) potentially ready to engage in more demanding "class" discussions or debates etc. So, although it is necessary to have good teacher-student interaction and demonstration, it is also necessary for s-s, if only so everyone is made to or gets a chance to speak.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:08 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Asia is not the only place where large classes exist. It might be the only place where large classes exist and untrained teachers are allowed to teach, but it isn't unique in that sense.
I have taken university French courses in Canada with 40-50 students (and only with trained teachers). I have taught classes with 40 students here too, and we were taught to do what fluffyhamster recommends.
Part of the problem aside from so many students (which I'm sure we all agree is not ideal), is that Asia is so teacher-focused. Teacher talk, teacher teeth-pulling (how many students want to talk to a teacher out loud in front of 49 peers?), teacher doing drama and treating her students like they are five.
Fluffy- I believe H. Douglas Brown discusses this is his books, but I can't recall exactly. I'd have to dig it out. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| If we ever do a "top mistakes untrained teachers make" thread (and I don't think we will, as it will probably get closed over hurt feelings), my contribution would be that many of them think their students learn English by listening to them blah blah blah. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| China certainly isn't the only country where teachers have to contend with lousy textbooks, mixed-ability classes, zero technology, large classes, etc. |
I've done this in Canada. Large class, mixed-ability, no technology (I brought my own laptop), no textbook (I would have killed for a lousy one).
This is where teacher training is essential. Even if people feel they cannot obtain a legitimate TESL qualification, there is no reason they cannot read books on it, at the least. I always refer to my former textbooks to help me as I go along as these issues are specifically addressed in them. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
| If we ever do a "top mistakes untrained teachers make" thread (and I don't think we will, as it will probably get closed over hurt feelings), my contribution would be that many of them think their students learn English by listening to them blah blah blah. |
Listening (and the type of spoken input forming it) is extremely important, and isn't always given enough consideration even by ostensibly trained teachers. But sure, a completely untrained teacher, winging it and just talking at students about whatever enters that teacher's little head, likely isn't going to have enough of a noticeable effect (unless the students can remain immersed full-time for months and months if not years, and even then, they could probably do with a variety of speakers at least!), and trained teachers will generally do a better job.
If there's some really good stuff in Brown or similar, do please post it!  I'm a bit busy at the mo with decorating and packing (rather than unpacking - house move is on the cards), but I can still try to find that chart sometime. I doubt if it contains much more than the sort of points I've outlined above, but it'd be nice to find out which book it was in! |
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nellychess
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
| If we ever do a "top mistakes untrained teachers make" thread (and I don't think we will, as it will probably get closed over hurt feelings), my contribution would be that many of them think their students learn English by listening to them blah blah blah. |
Better yet, why not post what things TO DO, instead of just what NOT TO do.
Fluffyhamster, thanks for some great ideas and concepts. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Heh, you're welcome, Nellychess! I'm just glad my stuff didn't put you completely to sleep.
| Quote: |
| Better yet, why not post what things TO DO, instead of just what NOT TO do. |
To be fair, they're two sides of the same coin, but yeah, positive suggestions are bound to appeal that bit more than negative prohibitions. |
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nellychess
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
Heh, you're welcome, Nellychess! I'm just glad my stuff didn't put you completely to sleep.
| Quote: |
| Better yet, why not post what things TO DO, instead of just what NOT TO do. |
To be fair, they're two sides of the same coin, but yeah, positive suggestions are bound to appeal that bit more than negative prohibitions. |
Yes, and you would figure that teachers, of all people, would understand that. |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| nellychess wrote: |
Yes, and you would figure that teachers, of all people, would understand that. |
Perhaps, but then you would also figure that teachers, of all people, would value education enough that they would be willing to commit the time and money necessary to get appropriate training. Yet many don't seem to bother.
The largest classes I work with are around 40 students, they are roughly streamed, but still mixed ability. I see each class once a week for 90 minutes. I usually divide them into 4 groups, with the strongest students mixed between 2 groups and the weakest mixed between the other 2 groups. I loosely follow a book, but mostly make my own materials. I work from one lesson plan, but have 2 sets of graded materials, plus sometimes a further supplementary sheet if anyone needs it.
I have no tech, just a chalkboard, and I usually give verbal instructions followed by a handout explaining the task, as the students at the back can't really hear me, and I'm not going to spend the day bellowing instructions. If the instructions are very short, I just write them on the board. As Fluffy suggested, I've trained them to work independently, and I monitor them as they interact with each other. Each group gets around 15 minutes of my attention per lesson. At the end they usually feedback to another group, if it's appropriate.
The chairs and tables are fixed, but they can still easily make groups of 3 or 4 by turning around in their chairs. When I've had classrooms where I couldn't physically walk around to monitor because it was so cramped, I did 'musical chairs' at the half way mark and had the front and back of the class swap over so I could still get round everyone during a lesson. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Nellychess, all quips aside, I'm sorry if you felt my suggestions were not useful. This is still a discussion forum for teachers, so we do occasionally blurt out what we are really thinking, and not necessarily a softened version.
Eventually, this falls back into the teacher training debate - if a person has done even the bare minimum teacher training, the problems with this video should be obvious. The solutions to certain basic problems (large class size, no technology) are covered in teacher training. If someone cannot take teacher training or worse, feels they do not need it, then there is only so much people can suggest - really, they are just helpful tidbits that barely cover a fundamental issue that teachers should know.
You don't sit around and talk about the weather in teacher training, you spend months (or years, for some of us) learning about these issues, reading about them, coming up with solutions, and dealing with them in student teaching environment. So, my most useful suggestion is that you really should take teacher training before becoming a teacher. I know many people don't want to do that, but in the end, this video is an example of what happens when people think that speaking English is good enough to teach English.
That is, of course, just my personal opinion. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Not just yours, Santi84. I share your sentiments entirely. |
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nellychess
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
Nellychess, all quips aside, I'm sorry if you felt my suggestions were not useful. This is still a discussion forum for teachers, so we do occasionally blurt out what we are really thinking, and not necessarily a softened version.
Eventually, this falls back into the teacher training debate - if a person has done even the bare minimum teacher training, the problems with this video should be obvious. The solutions to certain basic problems (large class size, no technology) are covered in teacher training. If someone cannot take teacher training or worse, feels they do not need it, then there is only so much people can suggest - really, they are just helpful tidbits that barely cover a fundamental issue that teachers should know.
You don't sit around and talk about the weather in teacher training, you spend months (or years, for some of us) learning about these issues, reading about them, coming up with solutions, and dealing with them in student teaching environment. So, my most useful suggestion is that you really should take teacher training before becoming a teacher. I know many people don't want to do that, but in the end, this video is an example of what happens when people think that speaking English is good enough to teach English.
That is, of course, just my personal opinion. |
That's fair, but I find it quite interesting that so many will make comments with nothing constructive to say. If I was on a forum with tennis teachers, and the same type of thing came up, I would have many helpful things to say because I have loads of experience, and like to help people. I would help with what the teacher should be saying, talk about their energy level, how to rotate the students, what type of instruction to give etc, etc.
If a guy told me he had a job teaching tennis to people in an area where no one with experience was available, and he was trying to learn a few things from people on a forum so that he could do a good job and help people, the LAST thing I would do is tell him that he isn't qualified, or that he needs to get certification first. He knows it would be better, but the situation is what it is.
I have a job coming up, and I am using a plethora of resources, and working hard so that I can do as good a job as possible. This forum can be a great resource, and there are some very caring, insightful people that choose to, and are able to provide assistance.
There are however, so many negative people on here that can't even express themselves, or share anything with anyone on here, that I doubt they are good at what they do, regardless of their experience and credentials. I have enough life experience to realize that.
I am not putting you in that category, but I question why some people even come on here. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| nellychess wrote: |
| There are however, so many negative people on here that can't even express themselves, or share anything with anyone on here, that I doubt they are good at what they do, regardless of their experience and credentials. |
Yet, making such snarky comments and labeling others who stated the obvious as "negative people" (when that clearly wasn't their intention) solely because you considered their advice unhelpful or lacking isn't likely to garner you much sympathy or support nor have other posters chomping at the bit to use this forum to provide you with the kind of training (yes, training) you need. The reality is, against the advice of others, you chose to take on a teaching job without getting trained, and now you alone---and not a bunch of anonymous strangers on a public forum---own that decision and all the consequences that come with it. Harsh? Perhaps, but it is what it is.
Anyway, the Cafe's teacher forum (http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/) might be more useful to you since it focuses on teaching and not on jobs. It requires separate registration. |
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PC Parrot
Joined: 11 Dec 2009
Posts: 459
Location: Moral Police Station
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with what has been said above, except for one thing.
I don't think the OP should go on a teacher training course, as a large part of it involves listening to people tell you what you could have done better. The experienced professional that you are paying to train you assumes that you are adult enough to take criticism positively.
They simply don't have time to molly coddle their students. That is the domain of the KG teacher, not the teacher trainer. |
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nellychess
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| nellychess wrote: |
| There are however, so many negative people on here that can't even express themselves, or share anything with anyone on here, that I doubt they are good at what they do, regardless of their experience and credentials. |
Yet, making such snarky comments and labeling others who stated the obvious as "negative people" (when that clearly wasn't their intention) solely because you considered their advice unhelpful or lacking isn't likely to garner you much sympathy or support nor have other posters chomping at the bit to use this forum to provide you with the kind of training (yes, training) you need. The reality is, against the advice of others, you chose to take on a teaching job without getting trained, and now you alone---and not a bunch of anonymous strangers on a public forum---own that decision and all the consequences that come with it. Harsh? Perhaps, but it is what it is.
Anyway, the Cafe's teacher forum (http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/) might be more useful to you since it focuses on teaching and not on jobs. It requires separate registration. |
Glad you got your daily fix. Feel better? |
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