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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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 Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| If you look at the raw data from resumes when seeking teachers for advertised jobs, the number lacking a degree is rather small, less than 20%. Whether or not those folks learned much in their programs is another question. This is HCMC, cannot say much about HN, though I do not expect the number to be substantially different. In the past, the perception was that HCMC appealed more to the younger and less serious teachers. |
I worked for a place named UNESCO in Hanoi and this name saw such overqualified candidates I would be ashamed to hand over a New English File booklet and tell them to get on with it. I just couldn't bring myself to hire these guys with resumes stating they compiled and implemented programmes for major top tier institutions in the West and abroad. And, yes, evidence suggests the majority of candidates to have at least a degree. I don't know the exact figure but at one time i had about 40 percent of the workers without a degree or degrees bought from the store. Another disturbing feature of Vietnam is the problem of people with no degrees and a resume from institutions of learning that saw you locked up at least 8 hours a day teaching children - It seems to be an easy in as the Viets are screaming for any warm body to teach those classes.
I don't know the percentage but there is a dark side to Hanoi employing some very interesting characters. What you can't see on the surface cannot be collated - Hopefully it is as you state: less than 20 percent.
I still don't think one needs a degree to teach here in Vietnam; good character and a desire to learn the trade is all one needs. I'd rather someone commit to something than a self-entitled nipper just passing through without a care, degree or not. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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It is a very good question why a degree is needed or even helpful when teaching EFL. A degree in Biology or Geography or even English (which will be 90%+ literature anyway) is unlikely to have any bearing.
Even if you did Applied Linguistics it is still unlikely to be directly relevant.
Good character in no way correlates with having or not having a degree.
But someone somewhere decided 'degree needed' and this is the case in most places now.
If I were recruiting and had the option I'd be more interested in trying to gauge motivations and personality than looking at what kind of degree someone had - if any. |
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Oh My God
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| vabeckele wrote: |
I worked for a place named UNESCO in Hanoi and this name saw such overqualified candidates I would be ashamed to hand over a New English File booklet and tell them to get on with it. I just couldn't bring myself to hire these guys with resumes stating they compiled and implemented programmes for major top tier institutions in the West and abroad.
I still don't think one needs a degree to teach here in Vietnam; good character and a desire to learn the trade is all one needs. I'd rather someone commit to something than a self-entitled nipper just passing through without a care, degree or not. |
as for UNESCO, we've had a few wrinkles here in the South:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=872867&highlight=unesco#872867
As for the degree, I agree it's not really needed as long as " I'd rather someone commit to something" and that is the key to being a great teacher - being a great student, yourself! OJT makes or breaks most of us. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Good character in no way correlates with having or not having a degree. |
I understand your thought, but do not completely agree with it. In the U.S. now, having a degree really proves that you have some ability to learn and some willingness to commit yourself to some things, education, career, perhaps some level of personal organization as well. So I do believe it correlates to some extent with good character, but it is certainly not an exact science. Many of our young people are coming out of college having learned very little of importance.
I also feel that the TESOL thing proves very little. I know that for many, passing the program is a matter of paying the fees and showing up. But, paying the money and showing up does imply a bit more commitment, so maybe it proves something, but not much.
The big issues we have with teaching English here are not mostly about the level of education/qualification of our teacher base, though some of these issues (if overcome) would naturally attract and keep a more qualified group.
An interesting question is if people who are experienced teaching in native English speaking countries are especially good at this work over here, or if having taught in the west could actually be a disadvantage. I do not have a strong opinion on that one, but think it is a fascinating question. Without trying to be rude about it, sometimes I think people who have worked in very rough environments may be a better fit. Hard to imagine someone who has worked in a well run educational system being patient enough to work his way up to a decent job here, but that is really speculation on my part. I rarely see anyone who was truly a real teacher in the west teaching over here, though I am sure we have a few. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
An interesting question is if people who are experienced teaching in native English speaking countries are especially good at this work over here, or if having taught in the west could actually be a disadvantage. I do not have a strong opinion on that one, but think it is a fascinating question. Without trying to be rude about it, sometimes I think people who have worked in very rough environments may be a better fit. Hard to imagine someone who has worked in a well run educational system being patient enough to work his way up to a decent job here, but that is really speculation on my part. I rarely see anyone who was truly a real teacher in the west teaching over here, though I am sure we have a few. |
That interests me too, although, I'm sure the reverse may be true too! After coming back from Qatar where a bloke had that very same day taken up a position as the principal of the school had no idea of where he was.
After a couple of days it was clear this place to be the same as here in Hanoi and to try and rule with an iron fist would just not work, and this is exactly what he did: issuing threats and ultimatums to staff who just looked back in sheer bewilderment. I won't go into the problems as us guys who have been out here a while know exactly what they are...and nothing can be done about them - The only difference, Qatar, being a lot more honest - So the owners, Qataris raised in the desert, undermine his authority and the staff get a double whammy - Sound familiar? This was also the same in Thailand when the A.D. thought it wise to micromanage the problems away...just stupid.
I came out to Asia to escape the boredom of structure. I may have bitten more than I can chew because not only am I struggling here now, it could be possible the highly structured environment of the west is also now too much.
As for modern day education...perhaps I went to a bad uni but I'm getting the picture that they are mostly all the same today and it was a shock for me: I had never had the means to go to uni until my 30's and always felt it a privilege to be able to go to an institute of learning. What I found was the total opposite of my beliefs. Before I start, I will tell you all I worked in the advertising industry for about three years and thought I has seen it all. University changed all of that, for four years it was just one binge drinking experience coupled with promiscuity and all the other stupidity, which I became a part of too. Although it was fun (not the diseases and hangovers) it disappointed me as my respect for learning was forever changed.
I will say it was different at master's level, this saw me in front of journals and computers for, sometimes 14-16 hours a day. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:40 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, it is a conundrum for sure. We constantly compare all this mess with the west and wish for our organization, control, structures and processes. Yet when we get there, the over control can be rather maddening as well, and there is something very compelling about the freedoms we have here. Westerners in the west think these people are not free, but I think almost none of us are. We just have different freedoms here, and many of them seem more personally important here. I fantasize constantly about a system to control the insanity of the driving, yet that is probably the greatest freedom (and perhaps the greatest joy) they have.
It is hard to know life from their perspectives, I do see the terrible choices they have, and feel pretty bad about that, but many of them seem happier living with their difficult circumstances than our wealthy people back home. I know I have never been happier in my life than here, but the relative value of my money here gives me much better choices than most of the natives get, and we have some extra freedoms that they do not when living over here. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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UK and I'm sure US universities at undergraduate level are pretty much a joke. A post graduate degree is essential now for almost any serious job. Some people do put in a lot of effort and get a lot out of it but there is NO way to tell from someone's degree classification or GPA scores.
I'd say people who never went to university but worked hard in a demanding job for 2-3 years probably have a better character than the average graduate.
TEFL certs can be a total scam and if you pay up and show up you will pass.
Not so on a CELTA or equiv. The workload is high and while few fail many drop out before the end or fail to complete some coursework and are therefore counted as not failed but still don't pass.
I've got a DELTA equiv and some solid experience in UK language schools. It helped in Korea and here to be effective in the classroom but you do have to adapt. I can adapt to the students but I cannot adapt to the management - though I have never really had to try. If I had to I suppose I could learn to shut up and not make any waves.
I don't think I could manage a school in Asia - the quality of the staff I'd be forced to employ would drive me bananas. And the higher ups wouldn't put up with my ethical approach to the students' welfare.
I know I wouldn't last 5 minutes in the middle east. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
| A degree was always needed - is the 'notarization' the new thing? |
ILA was begging me to go to Nam as late as 2007-08 without a degree. FYI |
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Mattingly
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: |
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At ILA now (and for some time) you have to have a degree. A real degree.
In Saigon there is now enforcement of the degree requirement and some long-term teachers have been let go.
The work permit issue is also tightening.
I know we've been hearing this for years and that conditions fluctuate, but there is tightening occurring now.
The corner has been turned. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Attesting a degree is not cheap. How do these agencies live with themselves?
855,000 VND for each page, pfff. And, when you have two degrees and perhaps a cert...
Then you have the translation from English to Vietnamese...
Thankfully, the medical can be done at a local hospital for 12-20 bucks.
I have been asked to pay for all of this: NEVER! |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fortunately for some, in Asia, a paper document still has an air of authenticity. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| Fortunately for some, in Asia, a paper document still has an air of authenticity. |
Mmm, nothing more authentic in, Asia, than that all important, authentic, document...money. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| cb400 wrote: |
tiger is on his campaign to rid Vietnam of all teachers without a degree. This guy must be a real treat to work with.
What a useless, stupid thread. Whats next 'All drivers need a license to operate a motorbike in Vietnam?' |
 ROFL |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mattingly wrote: |
At ILA now (and for some time) you have to have a degree. A real degree.
In Saigon there is now enforcement of the degree requirement and some long-term teachers have been let go.
The work permit issue is also tightening.
I know we've been hearing this for years and that conditions fluctuate, but there is tightening occurring now.
The corner has been turned. |
And what corner would that be? The firing of loyal, experienced teachers so they can be replaced by some newbies fresh off the bus or plane, with little or no life experience and maybe some sort of TEFL cert... |
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