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NP1970
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Beijing/Tianjin
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 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:10 am Post subject: |
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As for supply and demand, there is an endless supply of unqualified foreigners who think they are teachers only because they think they speak fluent English. In reality, they can seldom write a single paragraph of at least five sentences without mistakes.
The demand for real teachers with education degrees will forever remain in China because real teachers who have them will choose far better-paying places where to work than China (i.e. Turkey, Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait, etc.).
I think there will also continue to be an endless supply of users here on this forum who have high post counts comprised of mostly attacks on other users and less than 5% of their posts focused on the actual OP. What a waste of cache. Sometimes I think their sad lives revolve around deriding their fellow teachers on Dave's forum.
I cannot help but notice how many people come to this forum, make intelligent or provocative comments and after being harrassed, never return again. Braindead was absolutely right about this group of blog bullies that try to dominate every single comment with negative feedback or derision and never a suggestion as to how to fix a problem. I conclude many of them are part of the problem themselves. |
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muffintop
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
I think there will also continue to be an endless supply of users here on this forum who have high post counts comprised of mostly attacks on other users and less than 5% of their posts focused on the actual OP. What a waste of cache. Sometimes I think their sad lives revolve around deriding their fellow teachers on Dave's forum.
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Yeah...can you believe there are even people who create multiple accounts and post completely made up nonsense as fact? How sad and pathetic their lives they must be huh? They use multiple accounts in a weak attempt to lend credibility to themselves, their imaginary figures, and their so called organization. What I find most amusing is that sometimes the sockpuppets will disagree with each other on the surface or use intentionally poor grammar and spelling to try and make others think they aren't the same person.
Sad...so sad.
Don't you agree? |
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Sarcastro
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 89
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: Re: 79% of China Foreign Teachers Want Out... |
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| B4UGO wrote: |
I just read the 2012 annual report and Teacher Survey of the China Foreign Teachers Union and amongst the many stats (collected from 500 random teachers in China from K1-High Schools). The majority (79%) said they would never have become a teacher if they knew what was in store for them. When you read the rest of the report you can see why they are so pissed off (too many scams, ID thefts, unpaid overtime, and 52% said they were even cheated by their own schools!) I also found these two articles on line... http://www.zimbio.com/Beijing+China/articles/CWDbD8FdBB9/China+Foreign+Teachers+Say+Low+Salaries+Insulting which talks about the crappy salaries paid to foreign teachers in China and this one talks about about the scams: http://open.salon.com/blog/china_business_central/2012/12/14/china_foreign_teachers_exploited_and_abused_by_scams
Personally, I have seen some teachers threatened by Principals when they try to quit. Teachers are told they will be blacklisted, not get their last pay check, nor their release letter. They wanted to quite because they were being forced to work on one of their two days off for free. I faked a family emergency back home and bailed out of there too. Now I am lucky and found a school that has been 80% fair and honest with me, which is much better than most places. Because Chinese people think "saving money" is admirable, a little bit of cheating means nothing to them I suppose. Here are some more stats that I cut and pasted from the CFTU report:
1. 79% regret choosing the teaching profession in China and will either find new jobs or leave China after their current contracts expire.
2. 8% report that their current employment is �fine�, 7% � acceptable� and 6% �tolerable�.
3. 84% report being either deliberately misled or tricked by agents that recruited them.
4. 52% of those surveyed report being swindled or cheated at least once in the last year by their own employer.
5. 78% were unaware of protections offered by China�s labor laws.
6. 32% report being �pressured� or �extorted� for money in exchange for release letters from employers.
7. 87% report unpaid overtime hours were forced upon them by employers.
8. 64% report working under the provisions of a written contract.
9. 36% report working without a written contract.
10. 57% report that their contracts were breached �often� and �23% seldom� and 2% �never�.
11. 83% report not getting the visa support they were promised upon hiring.
12. 72% report having their work schedule changed more than once a month.
13. 89% report regular unapproved use of their personal images without knowledge, consent, nor compensation.
14. 62% report having their proprietary lesson plans or videos stolen or �hijacked� by employers.
15. 73% report regular violation of copyright and trademark violations by their employer.
16. 38% report not receiving their last paycheck from their former employers.
17. 22% report being sexually harassed by their employers or Chinese staff of employers.
18. 23% report that they trust their employers, 60% report that they do not, and 18% abstained.
There was a handful of positive stuff in the stats about TA support and text books being used. etc. But overall, I think most of the teachers here are not getting a fair shake. |
There are big problems with this survey as given in an earlier post made by one of your other gimmick accounts. But just in case you are just a puppet and there are others that haven't seen the previous post here are some glaring problems.
1) The sample size is way too low for the amount of FLTs that are here in China, unless of course you believe there are somewhere between 1000-4000 FLTs in China (rule of thumb you want your sample size to be no less than 1/8th of your populations <10,000). FYI 1100 subjects is the sweetspot of statistics.
Your Margin of Error is around +/- 4% and Confidence can barely hit 90% from what I can tell though I dont have your raw data. Essentially you've got almost a 10% range on any given statistic and even if you accurately hit that range, you have a 1 in 10 chance that you're way off. Put that together and you've got a study where 2 out of 11 statistics are not what they appear to be.
2) Study Source. CFTU is questionable at best as it is a site that claims to be connected to a lot of places and people but looks like a get rich quick scheme where I have to send you 20 dollars and you tell me how to make millions off of google ads. Not to mention the fact that CFTU isnt a legal trade union.
3) Sample Source. The population source has been reported to come from teachers mainly in Beijing and Shanghai with <20% coming from other areas. I know that these are the major hubs and do deserve to have a significant amount of weight but with only 100 at the most reporting from other places, it is impossible to give a good impression of the rest of the country.
Maybe, perhaps, you can claim to get an idea about Beijing but then you have the problem of creating gimmick on boards to pad your posts and questionable sources. I wouldn't be surprised if you did the same for your poll sources. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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The demand for real teachers with education degrees will forever remain in China because real teachers who have them will choose far better-paying places where to work than China (i.e. Turkey, Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait, etc.).
Since when does a degree in education exclude those with other degrees from the pantheon of "real" teachers? I know guys with just TESL certificates who are better teachers than a lot of Ph.Ds I know.
I'm not so sure that there's any great line of teachers waiting to get into Arab countries to teach English. The countries' governments (by western standards) are extremely repressive, and the FTs are expected to abide by local customs. (Try fasting all day during Ramadan or sneaking food and water until after sundown). Any male who teaches in most of the ME countries would have to be a eunuch to enjoy life there. Turkey is a lot less repressive, but the pay isn't so hot in many places. |
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Bolt
Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 34
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
As for supply and demand, there is an endless supply of unqualified foreigners who think they are teachers only because they think they speak fluent English. In reality, they can seldom write a single paragraph of at least five sentences without mistakes.
The demand for real teachers with education degrees will forever remain in China because real teachers who have them will choose far better-paying places where to work than China (i.e. Turkey, Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait, etc.).
I think there will also continue to be an endless supply of users here on this forum who have high post counts comprised of mostly attacks on other users and less than 5% of their posts focused on the actual OP. What a waste of cache. Sometimes I think their sad lives revolve around deriding their fellow teachers on Dave's forum.
I cannot help but notice how many people come to this forum, make intelligent or provocative comments and after being harrassed, never return again. Braindead was absolutely right about this group of blog bullies that try to dominate every single comment with negative feedback or derision and never a suggestion as to how to fix a problem. I conclude many of them are part of the problem themselves. |
The above makes sense to me. So does this...
http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2012/01/23/top-5-countries-for-teaching-english-abroad-that-arent-in-asia/
So this probably explains why FTs want to leave China - to make a lot more money somewhere else! |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Nice link.
Remember most teachers in China would struggle to get jobs in Turkey and Russia as a TEFL cert like CELTA is pretty standard in those regions. The article says as much, and if you dont have one, you'll be at a disadvantage in the job hunt.
The article you posted says 'dont expect to build your savings in Chile', and its commonly known that many South American countries pay pretty poorly.
Ditto for Spain. With working hours high, housing rarely provided, and salaries low ... not to mention the rampant unemployment in that country ... the odds of making real cash are very much against you. The same is true for much of Europe, where entry level jobs pay much worse than those in China. And Americans and Canadians need not apply.
And Dubai? MA holders are welcome, and those with valid experience are also welcome. Again, this will exclude most teachers in China who dont have related MA's, and quite often dont know too much about the type of teaching required in other countries. (ME students really demand and expect grammar for example)
So, its a nice link ... but not much of an example for teachers in China. Two of the jobs linked pay worse ... the other 3 have educational requirements that the majority in China dont have. |
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NP1970
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Beijing/Tianjin
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| Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
Nice link.
Remember most teachers in China would struggle to get jobs in Turkey and Russia as a TEFL cert like CELTA is pretty standard in those regions. The article says as much, and if you dont have one, you'll be at a disadvantage in the job hunt.
The article you posted says 'dont expect to build your savings in Chile', and its commonly known that many South American countries pay pretty poorly.
Ditto for Spain. With working hours high, housing rarely provided, and salaries low ... not to mention the rampant unemployment in that country ... the odds of making real cash are very much against you. The same is true for much of Europe, where entry level jobs pay much worse than those in China. And Americans and Canadians need not apply.
And Dubai? MA holders are welcome, and those with valid experience are also welcome. Again, this will exclude most teachers in China who dont have related MA's, and quite often dont know too much about the type of teaching required in other countries. (ME students really demand and expect grammar for example)
So, its a nice link ... but not much of an example for teachers in China. Two of the jobs linked pay worse ... the other 3 have educational requirements that the majority in China dont have. |
So which are the best paying countries for FTs for the same amount of working hours - in YOUR opinion or experience? |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I didn't know Turkey and Dubai were outside of Asia, must have missed that geography lesson. |
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buffalobill12323
Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 115
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
I cannot help but notice how many people come to this forum, make intelligent or provocative comments and after being harrassed, never return again. Braindead was absolutely right about this group of blog bullies that try to dominate every single comment with negative feedback or derision and never a suggestion as to how to fix a problem. I conclude many of them are part of the problem themselves. |
You've noticed a lot in the 8 days since you created, what is surely your one and only account here... |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
So which are the best paying countries for FTs for the same amount of working hours - in YOUR opinion or experience? |
Ill answer based on a combination of experience and opinion ... thanks for asking. My personal experience as an EFL teacher is limited to the UK, Poland and China. Ive also taught English online, but maybe thats not relevant to this discussion. If I compare those countries its quite clear that China offers the better salary packages, and even if you ignore the total package, China tends to offer the same or better hourly rates. Thats my own firsthand experience.
Ive been teaching English as a foreign language since 2006. In that period I have looked at lots of jobs and lots of countries ... My own personal job hunts lead me to believe that most jobs at entry level in Europe offer a worse deal than similar jobs in China. You just have to browse the jobs board to see that.
And if you read the forums long enough ... and keep an active forum account long enough, you'll see that people tend to suggest that starting out in South America isnt easy and that many jobs pay at subsistence level. So that anecdotally suggests China isnt a bad deal.
And consider the barriers to entry in China. They are set very very very low. Huge numbers of teachers here are not only without basic TEFL qualifications like CELTA, they are opposed to taking them and frequently suggest they arent needed, could / should be avoided. The skill set is often very limited amongst teachers in China too ... ask the average FT staffroom for some help in transcribing connected speech showing intruding /w/ and /r/ or ask for some clarification between present perfect simple and continuous and see what happens.
There are many problems to teaching in China. We discuss them often on the forum. They range from general living conditions such as pollution to poor working conditions like big classes and shoddy materials. The problems generally dont include terrible salary / cost of living / ability to save though. And the recent posts and links suggesting otherwise are quite clearly inaccurate and spammy.
So there is my opinion as requested. |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
| Few foreigners if any, earn less money in China than the foreign teachers. |
Yep ... because TEFL is often one of the lower paying ex-pat type jobs. This isnt a China thing ... its the same everywhere!
Your links needs reviewing though -
The Zimbio link is another spammy CTFU link and again, it starts with teachers being the lowest paid foreign jobs in China. Probably because it has the lowest barriers to entry. Guess what? TEFL teachers earn less than engineers everywhere!
The NY times link doesnt open.
The OECD link doesnt refer to TEFL jobs.
The Atlantic one also isnt discussing TEFL jobs so not relevant.
And the final one is the CFTU one so I wont even go there. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
| Few foreigners if any, earn less money in China than the foreign teachers. |
i suppose that's true if you don't count all the other foreigners who
earn even less.
you know, like the nearly 300,000 foreign domestics in hong kong
making under (the equivalent of) 3,000 rmb/month. |
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Harbin
Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 161
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muffintop
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| NP1970 wrote: |
| I have to agree with Hmmm..., BizLiz, and the CFTU |
You are agreeing with your sockpuppets. Brilliant. Nobody will ever see through that at all.
To Denim and others...you may want stop clicking on the worthless links. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Just report each post you see from these idiots--hopefully it will get taken down faster if more people are doing it. Not sure why the few threads they are constantly spamming have not been locked, as the discussion is going nowhere on any of them and they are just using multiple usernames to repost the same garbage links over and over again and make the same stupid statements. |
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