Job Discussion Forums

[MissWelsh]

Hi,

I have recently been offered a teaching contract in Vietnam, however I have some reservations and was hoping someone could provide me with some help and advice. The company wants me to sign the contract asap so I need to make a quick decision.

Firstly I was wondering if anyone had worked for I-CLC before? If so what are they like to work for?

Secondly I was hoping someone could give me advice on what to expect in job contracts in Vietnam. There are a few clauses that I am unsure of. If they are standard to all Vietnamese teaching contracts then I will take the job as I'm not going to get better elsewhere.

Obviously, as with any job you are expected to behave in a certain way and although I am sure I will always be professional if I do something wrong in the eyes of the company I will first get a verbal warning and then if I do something wrong again they will fine me 10% of my wages. This increases with everything indiscretion. Is this normal for a teaching contract in Vietnam?

Also the contract states that I am required to give 30 days notice should I wish to leave, there is no mention of a cooling off period. Therefore they are expecting me to go into the job without really knowing what it's going to be like and I am stuck there for at least a month even if I don't like it. Also if I dont give them 30 days notice they will charge me $60 for each day under that notice. So if I only give them 26 days notice I will be required to pay them $240!! Is this also standard for Vietnamese teaching contracts?

Sorry to ramble on. I really appreciate any help or advice.

Thanks.

[BenE]

I've seen these kinda things come up before in some contracts. It's a good idea to ask for them to be removed or renegotiate as they aren't standard in all teaching contracts. The notice period thing is a little bit unfair and it could mean they see your wages as an easily recoverable expenditure.

I guess it really also depends what the contract comes with. If they're providing a work permit/ health insurance for free then it might explain why but if it's just a contract and some long winded explanations about the work permit and why it's so hard then keep looking for sth. else.

[I'm With Stupid]

No, they're not standard in teaching contracts. Someone posted one a while back that was equally ridiculous. They might reasonably put something in to cover the costs of them arranging visas for you, if they're paying. If I leave my job, for example, I have to pay them back my visa pro rata. I think that's reasonable. But stuff like penalties for being late or quitting your contract without notice? Well the most important question there is what sort of school would need to put those things in a contract?

[skarper]

Don't sign this kind of thing. You'll only regret it.

[toiyeuthitmeo]

The fine for "indiscretions" is the huge red flag to me. This could turn in to ridiculous things like being fined for being 2 minutes late for class, or being fined because some precious snowflake who misbehaves in class complains about your classroom management methods.

I've never heard of this company, but they have a fairly professional website at http://i-clc.edu.vn/about.php and it claims to be founded by an Irishman with an MBA and fully-taught by qualified (degree / CELTA) native speakers. It claims to operate under a principle of offering high-quality native speaker lessons at lower fees than elsewhere. Hmmmm, I wonder how they're turning a profit with low fees? Massive class sizes? Crap resources? Or could it be treating and paying expat staff unfairly?

Another red flag is that the jobs advertised are for teaching at "our center, our partner centers, and public schools in HCMC." This sounds fairly close to an agency rather than a job at an actual I-CLC center.

Proceed with caution.

[MissWelsh]

Thanks for all the input so far.

I went into the office today to try and discuss the contract but the woman I was dealing with had difficulty understanding me and difficulty explaining the contract so she's asked me to write it all in an email and send it to a colleague.

While I was there she also gave me a copy of my schedule. I will be out of the house from 7am to 4pm but only actually work 3.6 hours during that time!!

I wasn't expecting things to be perfect here but I was expecting less stress than back in the UK.

The only reasons I want to sign the contract is that there is pay of $1900, whether I work my contracted hours or less. An extra $22 an hour if I work over my contracted hours and also they pay me 12 days national holidays.

It's stable money which will make me feel secure, however I basically have no life during the week!!

Is this sort of schedule the norm in Ho Chi Minh or should I look around for an alternative?

p.s I was robbed on the street today, they took my iPhone, so at the moment I'm not feeling to positive about staying in Vietnam

[skarper]

Sorry about the theft - very upsetting but alas quite common.

Don't sign this contract - just walk away.

Try to pick up some hours part time and build up from there. You are I take a woman and therefore at a premium.

You may never make 1900 usd month in month out but you might sometimes make more and you will have control. If you break this contract in any minor way they will invoke penalty clauses so your 1900 USD will often be less. What happens if you're sick and take 2-3 days off? What happens if you are late a few minutes due to traffic or some such.

Vietnam should not be about contracts and fixed hours but about flexibility and freedom. If you want guaranteed hours and money Korea is still the best bet.

[lenny321]

Sorry you had to experience that. I got my wallet snatched two weeks after arrival. Cash, credit card, driving license. I managed to feel more positive again after a few days of being very very pissed, but the incident made me super careful and alert.

So if you can manage the period of feeling like crap and constantly cursing the robber or even the whole country, you might be able to enjoy your stay again. But as skarper said, it's very common. Most people I know - foreigners and locals - experienced crime first-hand.

[MissWelsh]

Thanks again for your messages. Feeling a little better now. Even though I havent had the phone long I am lucky it was given to me second hand by a friend, so no major financial loss. Does anyone have any help or advice on where I can pick up a cheap phone. I dont think there is much point me forking out for a smart phone as I probably won't be able to use it back home and also I dont want to risk the same thing happening again.

With regards to the job I think I'm going to walk away from it. I've emailed them with the list of my concerns so it'll be interesting to see what the come back with but I am not feeling confident signing up with this company now anyway. Especially since they told me that on my partners contract he will be expected to be available to them from 8am - 5pm and if he doesnt answer his phone for 2hrs during that time they will fine him. So basically he has to sit around waiting for their calls all day Monday - Friday and not get paid!!

Hopefully I'll have an interview next week to work at a kindergarten Monday - Friday 7am - 12pm. A nice solid 5 hours a day is what I wanted.

Does anyone know of any other schools/companies I should try?

[RustyShackleford]

Go to Huong Vuong Street. My phone(s!) got lifted in Cambodia and I happened upon this row upon row of used phone shops. All sorts of stuff. I picked up a cheap Chinese Samsung Android knock-off at about 1million VND, which is pretty decent when it can use 3G, WiFi and give me realtime Gmail updates.

As for the contract, I too am a steady contract salary, but I disagree with Skarper in that I can understand not wanting to work every evening and weekend to get your cash. That said, your arrangement seems pretty bad. My contract doesn't penalize me for late classes or the like nor does the language center I'm also getting out of (although there is a guideline to be early which is cheerfully neglected).

Ever read the book "English Teacher X's Guide to Teaching English Abroad?" The guy's acerbic approach may not be your cup of tea, but he writes an excellent, excellent chapter on "How to Spot a Crappy Language School" which includes items you point out such as -

Nobody in Management Speaks English (Sure an Irishman allegedly owns the place, but why doesn't the lady in charge of actually giving you work and outlining The Rules not speak enough to accurately manage your contract?

Their contract has a bunch of absurd nitpicky rules.

The language centers are pretty decent places but, honestly, if you get that 7am-12pm M-F job, I see no reason to look elsewhere if you're netting $18-$22/hour.

[MissWelsh]

Thank you for the phone and job advice Rusty. My guesthouse manager told me I could get a basic phone for 1 million VND but I'd much rather an android so I'll check this street out. Hoping my insurance back home will cover me, but as I dont have proof of purchase I doubt it. Worth a try though.

I've decided to avoid this job, at least for the moment. I can't comfortably take it with the possibility of a job at this kindergarten and interest from Compass Education. Although I'm pretty sure Compass will be the same with regard to split shifts, but If they have no stupid disciplinary clauses in their contract then at least I'd be more comfortable with the job. My only worry is not getting paid when Tet comes along, but I guess that'll have to be something I budget for and grin and bare it.

To be honest I'm starting to regret the move. I've given up so much back home and I'm really not enjoying myself at the moment, but I guess if I don't give it a decent go I may regret it. Just so tempted to jump on a plane at the moment.

[ajc19810]

Hi Miss Welsh,

Hang in there. Vietnam can be a tough place, but you will get the feel of the place very quickly and I hope things pick up for you.

Not all contracts are like that, in fact a lot of places wont even bother with a contract. I thought you might like some tips that i have encountered in my time.

- If you decide to leave a job. Leave the day you get paid.
- I have broken contracts and have never faced any repercussions. Saying that i have also had contracts broken from the employer and never bothered taking any action. In fact i brought this up on this board once after i got shafted and the overwhelming response was not to bother and just move on.. which i did. I have never met anybody fined for leaving a job, even when their contracts have stated it (i'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I have never encountered it personally).
- Be confident, there are jobs out there and contracts can and should be negotiated. It does take a bit of getting used to, negotiating with the Vietnamese, as they are difficult to read, primarily because of the language barrier.
- $1900 is good money and very livable and savable.
- Tet can be a difficult time financially, but I have learned that you can get by in Vietnam with very little if necessary, especially once you've settled in.
- IMO women teachers are still sought after by employers, so i think that gives you an advantage and more options.
- Insurance. I claimed a laptop that was stolen and i used photographs i had of the computer for proof of purchase.

Anyhoo, I hope it all goes well and i am sure you will meet some locals that will restore faith in your Vietnam experience. And if not do what im sure we all did when we got here, go and have a few drinks.

[MissWelsh]

Thanks for the tips ajc.

I am planning on emailing the centre later and informing them that I have an interview with a school and a possible contract with another centre and therefore I can't commit to them without first knowing what my other options are.

I have also found, on these forums, some legal statements regarding the work permit situation that I may email too. When I last spoke with the centre they told me that they would assisst me with my work permit and pay $100 towards it. However, I have since found out that it is their responsibility to apply and pay for it. Compass Education have already offered $300 towards it and by the sounds of it that will be enough to get the job done.

It's all so confusing out here at the moment and although I did a lot of research before I came it just doesn't prepare you in the slightest. I knew the dangers of having my phone stolen long before it happened but it only takes a few seconds of absent mindedness, paying attention to something, for it to happen. I also knew the difficulties in finding a job, I just never thought the difficulties would come from having an offer!!

Anyway, again, thanks for the advice and if anyone else wants to chip in with more tips I would be so very grateful. I'm guessing this forum is going to be my life line in Ho Chi Minh no mater how long my stay.

[Tigerstyleone]

[mark_in_saigon]