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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I am also a bit baffled as to how I now have more experience to better instruct Vietnamese students, the less work I am getting, and whether perceived as personal or not, I am actually being shut out. You have probably read in other posts though of the strong initiative to push teachers into the public school system and what results are showing from that.
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Well, put yourself in their shoes and imagine glancing over the lengthy and impressive CV of somebody who knows what they're doing, has been around the block and has a justifiably high opinion of themselves.
You know they know that somebody like that will:
- want a higher rate of pay
- ask questions and complain
- have higher expectations and make demands
- likely get angry on occasion and cause a scene
- probably quit asap
If they bother to ask this person to come in for an interview, their suspicions will be confirmed by the confident body language and attitude and professional appearance. Then, suddenly the find themselves being interviewed by the applicant! "Trời ơi, this guy asks a lot of questions! He looks like trouble..."
Later that day, Joe College comes in. He doesn't even have a CV/resume. He quite happily fills in an application form. He's not really looking to make any money; he just wants to stay in VN for a while, six months or so.
Or better yet, some young woman who just adores Viet Nam. She loves it here and she wants to give to this country and help it grow. She loves children, too.
Young, attractive, relaxed, friendly, smiling, happy... "I can't believe I actually get paid to do this!" they exclaim.
Who would you hire? So, I don't think it's personal but rather a common experience for older, experienced qualified teachers. How can we compete with that?
| Quote: |
| Quite a few years ago now, lawyers lobbied to be exempt from work permits. They got what they wished for, but the documentation they had to supply to prove that they were exempt from a work permit was more onerous than getting the work permit, so my lawyer friends tell me. |
spycatcher, can you explain (or attempt to) what their logic or goal in this situation is? What do they (the govt) hope to achieve or gain?
Last edited by sigmoid on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:42 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:02 am Post subject: |
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[quote="sigmoid"]
| Quote: |
I am also a bit baffled as to how I now have more experience to better instruct Vietnamese students, the less work I am getting, and whether perceived as personal or not, I am actually being shut out. You have probably read in other posts though of the strong initiative to push teachers into the public school system and what results are showing from that.
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Well, put yourself in their shoes and imagine glancing over the lengthy and impressive CV of somebody who knows what they're doing, has been around the block and has a justifiably high opinion of themselves.
You know they know that somebody like that will:
- want a higher rate of pay
- ask questions and complain
- have higher expectations and make demands
- likely get angry on occasion and cause a scene
- probably quit asap
If they bother to ask this person to come in for an interview, their suspicions will be confirmed by the confident body language and attitude and professional appearance. Then, suddenly the find themselves being interviewed by the applicant! "Trời ơi, this guy asks a lot of questions! He looks like trouble..."
Later that day, Joe College comes in. He doesn't even have a CV/resume. He quite happily fills in an application form. He's not really looking to make any money; he just wants to stay in VN for a while, six months or so.
Or better yet, some young woman who just adores Viet Nam. She loves it here and she wants to give to this country and help it grow. She loves children, too.
Young, attractive, relaxed, friendly, smiling, happy... "I can't believe I actually get paid to do this!" they exclaim.
Who would you hire? So, I don't think it's personal but rather a common experience for older, experienced qualified teachers. How can we compete with that?
It is a coward, or a whole industry of cowards that won't let competence get in the way of personal gain and as a consequence incompetence rules the day.
Just today, I found out my 'boss!?' changed my hourly rate, strike one, cheated me out of 2.5 dollars on every class when it came to the exchange rate, strike two, and then holds me hostage on wages due if I do not do the next few lessons, strike three (I've only been back a week!) - One would think a person of average intelligence would be a little more hesitant in behaving in such a way to a teacher experienced in Vietnam, but no ego and personal gain must come first.
And to be honest, I find Westerners finding excuses for this kind of behaviour just as bad. How hard can it be? Walk in, teach, get paid and walk out. How that manages to be difficult for either party I will never know. Now, I remember I time I was an academic director and this place thought if correct teachers get paid an hourly rate higher than mine, not such a problem, but when teachers are needling their coordinator about this it becomes an issue; it undermines the position as that position cannot be trusted or respected. I remember one particular teacher ringing me up (college Joe) telling me, not asking, telling me, he was off to a party and I must fill in for him for his class that night - The whole system is rotten.
Who would I rather hire...? Well, it's about playing the game a lot smarter than how it is played here.
On a different note, I would like to ask those who have been here more than 5 years or so about the cyclical nature of teaching in Vietnam. At this moment in time where the economy is down I am getting many phone calls from private individuals asking me to teach, which is the complete opposite when I came here a few years ago where it was the organisations that had all of the work. I can see a pattern emerging where teachers make many connections when the economy is down but will have to run around a lot more, but when things pick up all of a sudden these private individuals kind of disappear (as they merge into a 'centre'). Is this a correct assumption? And if this is to be the case, one could not really question the organisational capabilities of the Vietnamese - It is just unfortunate these talents are wasted due to very difficult and rapid changes in political, economic and social conditions here - It is not as much entrepreneurialism but rather a 'co-op' where the dynamics arevery different and with a very different outcome too.
Thank God I have a trip coming up to a place that ESL teachers think of as Mecca (at least in monetary terms and work put in). |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
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I don't think people make excuses as much as analyze and explain the phenomenon.
It could and indeed should be different and far better for the students and teachers. But it won't be.
We must make the best of it and somehow find our way through the maze.
It helps not to care about 'face' or 'respect'. It helps not to need much money. It helps if you actually like teaching. It helps a lot to marry a local.
A while ago I made the switch away from serious adult classes (which barely exist here) to fun and games English for kids. Less stress, more money and a lot more fun.
Now I just won't teach adults or even teenagers.
My work is no longer intellectually rewarding but it is a lot more fun and less stress. I can use my brain my free time.
Some people just need to take a break from Vietnam and maybe from teaching and relax. If you need respect, serious money and security then this is the wrong country and probably the wrong job.
I could write a 5 bullet point plan to vastly improve EFL in Vietnam but the people with the power to implement it don't care. It is just irrelevant to them. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
...but the people with the power to implement it don't care. It is just irrelevant to them. |
That's the kernel of it all right there. |
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TRH
Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 340
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
A while ago I made the switch away from serious adult classes (which barely exist here) to fun and games English for kids. Less stress, more money and a lot more fun.
Now I just won't teach adults or even teenagers.
My work is no longer intellectually rewarding but it is a lot more fun and less stress. I can use my brain my free time. |
I was once a 4th grade teacher and felt sure coming here that I would never want to teach that young again. However, at times I wish that I could. I enjoy teaching Grade 6-8 more than Grade 11 and wish I could take a try at Grades 1-3. Done properly, isn't this the age group where we can have the greatest effect? It is if you consider the critical period hypothesis. Of course it has to be a well planned curriculum and a lot more than flash cards, games and cartoons. It could be more rewarding if done right but of course that could a tall order in Vietnam.
| skarper wrote: |
| I could write a 5 bullet point plan to vastly improve EFL in Vietnam ... |
Even if the powers that be don't care, could you satisfy our curiosity and post your five bullet points here? |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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We'll - lets see
- Implement a simple and transparent WP process, ideally centralised with offices in Hanoi and HCMC (maybe Danang too but it's not essential). Make the process one the teacher can do on their own without having an employer. Health check (a joke anyway) + CELTA equiv + Degree + Police clearance = WP issued on the same day. Cost under 100 USD.
- Crack down hard on employers who have people working without a WP. 1000 USD fines per teacher found working without a WP would do it.
- Require anyone working as the manager of a language school to have a WP (as above) or to be a suitably qualified Vietnamese teacher.
- Permit and even encourage teachers holding WPs to work privately.
- Deport and do not allow to return for a year people found teaching without WP (perhaps after the first 'warning').
Due to the culture here some of the above would be hard to enforce of course.
Really, they have quite reasonable rules already just nobody follows them!
I think many qualified teachers become exasperated when they provide all the documents for a WP and their school drags their feet.
I don't think it matters if a few people exploit the teacher WP to come here and get involved in some kind of criminal activity - such people can enter and exit on tourist/business visas anyway.
It's rather silly to think about this because the system is the way it is for very good reasons.
But since you asked. |
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Mushroom Druid
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| vabeckele wrote: |
| Just today, I found out my 'boss!?' changed my hourly rate, strike one, cheated me out of 2.5 dollars on every class when it came to the exchange rate, strike two, and then holds me hostage on wages due if I do not do the next few lessons, strike three (I've only been back a week!) - One would think a person of average intelligence would be a little more hesitant in behaving in such a way to a teacher experienced in Vietnam, but no ego and personal gain must come first. |
After you leave and are clear of this school, I hope you name and shame the place. |
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| sigmoid wrote: |
| Quote: |
I am also a bit baffled as to how I now have more experience to better instruct Vietnamese students, the less work I am getting, and whether perceived as personal or not, I am actually being shut out. You have probably read in other posts though of the strong initiative to push teachers into the public school system and what results are showing from that.
|
Well, put yourself in their shoes and imagine glancing over the lengthy and impressive CV of somebody who knows what they're doing, has been around the block and has a justifiably high opinion of themselves.
You know they know that somebody like that will:
- want a higher rate of pay
- ask questions and complain
- have higher expectations and make demands
- likely get angry on occasion and cause a scene
- probably quit asap
If they bother to ask this person to come in for an interview, their suspicions will be confirmed by the confident body language and attitude and professional appearance. Then, suddenly the find themselves being interviewed by the applicant! "Trời ơi, this guy asks a lot of questions! He looks like trouble..."
Later that day, Joe College comes in. He doesn't even have a CV/resume. He quite happily fills in an application form. He's not really looking to make any money; he just wants to stay in VN for a while, six months or so.
Or better yet, some young woman who just adores Viet Nam. She loves it here and she wants to give to this country and help it grow. She loves children, too.
Young, attractive, relaxed, friendly, smiling, happy... "I can't believe I actually get paid to do this!" they exclaim.
Who would you hire? So, I don't think it's personal but rather a common experience for older, experienced qualified teachers. How can we compete with that?
| Quote: |
| Quite a few years ago now, lawyers lobbied to be exempt from work permits. They got what they wished for, but the documentation they had to supply to prove that they were exempt from a work permit was more onerous than getting the work permit, so my lawyer friends tell me. |
spycatcher, can you explain (or attempt to) what their logic or goal in this situation is? What do they (the govt) hope to achieve or gain? |
Excellent appraisal of how Viets hire, they always want to save a buck at the expense of the big picture. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Mushroom Druid wrote: |
| vabeckele wrote: |
| Just today, I found out my 'boss!?' changed my hourly rate, strike one, cheated me out of 2.5 dollars on every class when it came to the exchange rate, strike two, and then holds me hostage on wages due if I do not do the next few lessons, strike three (I've only been back a week!) - One would think a person of average intelligence would be a little more hesitant in behaving in such a way to a teacher experienced in Vietnam, but no ego and personal gain must come first. |
After you leave and are clear of this school, I hope you name and shame the place. |
The damage is done: English Action Center - Mr Cuong and his gf, Trang, they are both colluding together on this cop-op venture. It would also be wise to watch of the different gigs they are sending teachers out on too. They act as agents for other institutions and individuals and of course takes the cut out of the teacher's end. |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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This article is similar to the one above but seems to be an expanded/rewritten/updated version:
Vietnam's new rules on foreign workers likely to make things messy for employers
Last Updated: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 11:25:00
Country’s universities ill-equipped to churn out the high-caliber local workers required to take over from foreigners
http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/pages/20130922-new-rules-on-foreign-workers-likely-to-make-things-messy-for-employers.aspx
some highlights:
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The recent tightening of regulations on foreign workers, which involves even more red tape, is likely to exacerbate the already dire human-resource situation facing the corporate sector, experts warn.
A decree to take effect on November 1 superseding an earlier one will continue to make it incumbent on employers to prove that they require foreign workers and that Vietnamese cannot replace them.
But employers now have to get approval from the provincial chief to hire foreign workers.
Foreigners found working without permits will be deported within 15 days.
The decree reduces the validity of work permits for a broad category of foreign workers from three to two years, a provision that could aggravate the shortage of skilled workers already felt acutely by both foreign and local companies, the experts point out.
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In hindsight, what the authorities should have done while drafting the new rules was “establish clear regulations that cater to each and every category of foreign workers, especially in distinguishing between ‘workers’, ‘technicians’, ‘managers’ and ‘professionals’,” David Koh, associate professor of Southeast Asian studies at the National University of Singapore, said.
Experts also say if the government wants to keep more jobs for locals, what it also needs to do is improve training to produce more workers relevant to the investments that are going to be made.
But nearly four decades after the Vietnam War ended in 1975 the country remains bogged down in an education quagmire.
Foreign companies have warned in the past that the poor quality of universities will hinder Vietnam's economic growth and said it makes it difficult for them to find enough graduates in finance, management, and information technology.
The European Chamber of Commerce (EuroCham) in Vietnam said in a white book it released last December that Vietnam’s education system faces “a major crisis which is affecting the current workforce and talent being produced.”
It said due to the lack of satisfaction with general and vocational training, nearly 40 percent of foreign companies feel the need to invest in onsite training, which is a massive burden on those seeking to invest in Vietnam.
It quoted a recent education ministry survey as saying that around 60 percent of recent graduates need retraining to meet the requirements of future employers.
“Employers in Vietnam, both domestic and foreign, face very similar problems in terms of human resources,” Nicola Connolly, vice chairwoman of EuroCham, said.
“There is an abundance of working age people available in the market plus an additional one million entering the workforce but the issue is that you have to train in all aspects of the job, not only hard skills to do the job but also soft skills, like acceptable behavior in the workplace.”
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The analysts say they expect expatriates to cry “more red tape” and more opportunities for “negotiation.”
“Adding steps to the approval process… which actually should be more than enough, will indeed complicate and delay things and not increase efficiency,” George Adam, general manager of HCMC-based tourism company Exotissimo Vietnam, said.
“Those want to do all as required by law will be penalized.” |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Any insight on what is happening?
Supposedly this new law is going to take hold on Nov 1. Anyone found working without a WP is supposed to be deported within 2 weeks. Looks to me like there has not been an especially big number of work permits generated for teachers, I am thinking we still have some 80% or so of our guys working without one. Is that what you folks are seeing? |
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TRH
Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 340
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| I heard a second hand report that tourist visas are no longer immediately available in Cambodia and that some teachers are currently stuck on the other side of the border with their personal effects still here. I have no direct verification but if so this is a rather drastic situation for some. |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
Any insight on what is happening?
Supposedly this new law is going to take hold on Nov 1. Anyone found working without a WP is supposed to be deported within 2 weeks. |
A free flight home? Well, that is one way to get one's end of term bonus - I will pack my bags in anticipation.
I can't see this happening to be honest. What I can see is the response from English centres. Oh, Mr teacher, we can't pay you for the last month because it is illegal. Can you still teach for free? |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: |
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The expat vn site has some info online about what is up. But I am not hearing how/if this thing is going to be enforced.
I do think that visas are getting cranked out regularly in exchange for money. expat vn says that you need a residency permit now for this, that is like a change in the rule, according to them. Anyway, my experience is that we are not seeing difficulty getting more or less endless 3 month extensions if we are willing to pay the price, forget what it is, it varies a bit, 250 or so if you have had quite a few extensions. But that is extensions staying here, not new ones in Cambodia, and also is just HCMC, cannot say much about what is going on in HN, though I do think folks there fly over to Bangkok and get new visas without a problem.
My real question is what will happen on the WP thing, and I am just wondering if many folks are suddenly and magically getting them, my thought is that they are not. If they don't, will anything really change on Nov 1? My guess is that we may get some new work permits issued, may have higher compliance than in the past, but from the looks of it at this time, it does not appear that we are getting anything close to full compliance, please correct me if I am wrong on that. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| vabeckele wrote: |
| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
Any insight on what is happening?
Supposedly this new law is going to take hold on Nov 1. Anyone found working without a WP is supposed to be deported within 2 weeks. |
A free flight home? Well, that is one way to get one's end of term bonus - I will pack my bags in anticipation.
I can't see this happening to be honest. What I can see is the response from English centres. Oh, Mr teacher, we can't pay you for the last month because it is illegal. Can you still teach for free? |
Teach for free in VN? Sure, why not, I am doing this as a form of charity anyways... |
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