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leeroy · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 777 Location: London UK

Hey there folks - I've never been to Japan Smile

But, I just finished watching a documentary (somewhat ambitiously) covering Japan's history over the last 1,000 years. It was amazing stuff, Shoguns, Samurais, the origin of the word "Kamikaze" and it's connections to the Mongol empire etc...

The program was all phrased rather romantically - so while I'm still in the mood I'd like to ask you:

In modern Japan, how visible is this rich history? When I think of Japan these days, sadly, all I get is images of students-devoid-of-personality, schoolgirl porn, karate and this weird "Takashi's Castle" program that we get here on UK cable TV. Prove me wrong please!

AgentMulderUK · Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:29 pm Post subject:

Sadly, your images are 100% correct.

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

yeah... for once I'm with mr mulder though I'd probably downgrade it to 90% or so Wink

To find out more factual stuff you really have to work hard in Japan. A lot of stuff has been overdeveloped and obliterated leaving few sites that are original any more. Also, recent history i.e. Meiji period and onward is still very controversial and therefore very difficult to find out about in Japan from the Japanese people themselves. I picked up most of what I know by reading books in English and visiting some sites. The difference in the histories of these two points of view was sometimes disconcerting.

One example: it is often cited in the west that 300,000 Christians were wiped out in persecution under the evil shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu. However, it was actually his third son (I think) Iemitsu who was the really nasty piece of work and it wasn't only Christians but large swathes of society that he did away with. It was very much similar to how Hitler behaved - genocide. I found the latter out from Japanese history and I was glad to have these gaps filled in. The west puts the plight of the Christians above all other groups of that period I have found. It was news to me also that Buddhist monks fought alongside these Christians in rebellion against the local rulers in the southern islands. Again, these Buddhist deaths are rarely mentioned in the west.

Nice to have more of a balance...

leeroy · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 777 Location: London UK

shit!

Xerius · Joined: 20 Jan 2003 Posts: 29

Japan definitely has a rich cultural history. How visible is it? Not very, at least on an immediate level. It's certainly there though, if you look around. The cities are largely modern and concrete, and there clearly hasn't been much effort put into preserving and retaining them intact. And as for the actual cultural customs, they're still around, but not necessarily embraced by the general population. Yet this is nothing abnormal in comparison to pretty much any other modern, developed nation. Nor is it the case that the Japanese are more ignorant about the customs and history of their home country than their counterparts in Europe, North America or Australasia are. If you're coming here expecting an exotic, traditional, cultural overload, I think you're being a bit unrealistic. The era of shoguns and samurais ended quite a long time ago (and well before the economic boom).

PAULH, it sounds like you're being a bit harsh (and bitter?) towards Japan as a whole. Of course it's no utopian wonderland, but I would hardly say it's any worse off than the U.S., Canada, the U.K. or elsewhere in terms of social ills. All countries have their fair share of serious problems and this one is no exception. I can definitely count a significant number of things that the Japanese are doing right (that are missing from my home country). I'm sure you can too, no?

AgentMulderUK · Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject:

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

I found Kerr's book entertaining, but one-sided. He could have made a better argument if he had been a little more balanced. I also think he copped out by not giving any suggestions. He said, as a foreigner, he didn't have a right to tell the Japanese what to do. But he had a right to bash? I would have liked to hear him say what could be done to fix some of the problems in Japan, especially the environmental ones. It is a good read, nevertheless.

Sweetsee · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 2302 Location: ) is everything

Sorry to interrupt.

Somebody throw me a bone over here would you please.

I really am trying over here.

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Sweetsee · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 2302 Location: ) is everything

Thanks PaulH,

What I meant was let me pick your brain for one moment and take a look at my thread on evaluating students.

Sorry. Feel free to disregard of course.

Cheers,
S

Xerius · Joined: 20 Jan 2003 Posts: 29

I don't disagree with your point that Japan has some serious issues. I was just making sure that we're seeing the balance here - there are positives as well. I'm quite aware of Japan and its peoples' shortcomings and historical misdeeds, but I don't feel they're by any means unique in this regard. I know my home country (which you addressed) is certainly not stain-free to any degree; there are things to admire about the U.S. as well as things to detest. Same goes for anyplace.

I'll check out the book, as it'd probably be an interesting read (if rather biased - but what isn't?).

edit: this was in response to PAULH, btw