Job Discussion Forums

[maj0915]

Hi everyone, I am considering accepting my first university job in China and was wondering if some of these things in the contract seemed normal, or if I should ask them to be changed:

- The contract states that I would be responsible for the costs of residence permit, working card, health certificate, and foreign expert certificate

- I would also be responsible for utilities (this seems to be common from what I've read here.)

- Should the salary we negotiate represent the pretax or post-tax amount?

Thanks!

[johntpartee]

[Bud Powell]

And probably a lot of other things that you haven't found out about. Pass on this one for sure.

[Javelin of Radiance]

None of these, FEC, health check, res. permit, are major expenses, so negotiate with the school and see if they'll cover them. Tell them you'll cover the cost of the visa.

Utilities can be a bit expensive depending on where you live. Mine run me about 100-150 a month. Not a deal breaker. Maybe different if you live in the frigid or sweltering hot parts of the country.

Based on the very limited info that's been posted I'm surprised anyone is saying "pass."

Everything is open to negotiation in a contract, never assume what's in front of you is the final and only offer.

[johntpartee]

Point well taken, JoR, but in my experience, these negatives right off the bat don't portend well for other contract points or general negotiations with the employer.

[Bud Powell]

My experience has been that the visa is ALWAYS my expense because it is paid on my end. The cost for acquiring this is a major expense on my part: med check, (and now criminal check) , courier expense, and then the cost of the visa itself.

If the FEC, residence permit and the Chinese health check is so cheap, then the school certainly can bear the cost of it. For Americans, the residence permit is higher than for FTs from other countries. The last time I was privy to the cost of the residence permit, it was 900rmb. That number has risen since then, I am sure.

If you're dealing with a public school, the costs on their end come out of a discretionary fund provided by the government (probably the Ministry of Education or the City Foreign Affairs Office). Unless things have changed, these costs are the school's costs. For as long as I have been teaching in China, these costs have been paid by the school.

If you're dealing with a private enterprise, it's probably a different game.

[WLamar]

There is no logic in assuming that if you want a job, that the employee him/herself should be responsible for paying for the necessary documentation, etc. It's your visa to live in the country, and the other documents are for working, for you. I see no reason employers should be taxed with these expenses. I'd be happy to let someone else pay for mine (which they don't), but I take the personal and professional responsibility of such.

As for other things. This comes down to basic employment negotiation 101.

Those that don't know how to do it clearly need more experience back home in the job world before sprinting overseas.

[teenoso]

A......, or whoever you are, no one is assuming anything , the OP asked for advice on what he should negotiate, because as a newbie to China he does not know too much about what can be negotiable.
My Uni ( and previous employers) has borne the cost of the documentation in the city (FEC, RP, medical check) , but all other visa expenses (including a trip to HK for the z visa) were on me .
This is kinda reasonable , although of course everyone would like to be paid for every expense.
It is unreasonable in my view for the employer to expect you to pay for the FEC and RP, and in-China medical check. So negotiate.

Oh , and definitely specify a post-tax salary .

[roadwalker]

I agree with all of the above except that I couldn't understand WLamar's first and second sentences, taken together. There are some disagreements above but the point is that these obligations are usually paid by the employer (the permitting which takes place in China, as opposed to the cost of the visa to enter China.) So I definitely see that as a red flag. Where else are they going to cut their expenses at your expense? It is all negotiable, including the cost of the visa, but you're not likely to pass that one on to them.

I'd be suspicious but if you otherwise like the job, or think you will, get as much information as possible about overall costs. At a university they are usually minimal, and your spending depends on your eating, drinking, traveling and other habits. Add up the total compensation and subtract any unusual expenses along with the usual ones. What's the monthly salary? How many months do they pay in the contract? Do they pay the full salary during long breaks? What is their policy regarding airfare reimbursement or set bonus amount? Are all classes near where you will live or will there be travel involved? Be sure to insist on speaking or emailing current or recent foreign teachers in this case.

[Bud Powell]

There is no logic in assuming that if you want a job, that the employee him/herself should be responsible for paying for the necessary documentation, etc.

You're not from around here, are you? Logic doesn't figure into this. It's about procedure. For as long as I have been working in China (and reading employment contracts), the public schools have ALWAYS picked up the tab for the mentioned expenses with the exception of the visa.

Until recently, public universities also picked up the utilities tab in MOST cases. When it wasn't paid by the university in full, contracts specified consumption limits. Policies regarding utilities are changing in response to increasingly stringent conservation measures, and the increasing costs of providing "western standards" for foreign teachers.

As for other things. This comes down to basic employment negotiation 101.


Good luck with negotiating with a school who doesn't even know you.


Those that don't know how to do it clearly need more experience back home in the job world before sprinting overseas.

In my home country, if one is required to take a pre-employment physical, the prospective employer picks up the tab, one can rely upon this piece of wisdom especially if the physical is as comprehensive as the ones that FTs are required to take before they arrive in China. In my part of the United States, my last physical cost almost $1,000.00. (Some people claim to pay substantially less than that, but I'd be willing to bet that their physical was substantially less comprehensive).

I highly doubt that any western employer would expect a prospective employee to shell out that kind of money before any employment agreement had been reached. That's not a matter of logic. It's common sense, something which Our Maker seems not to have dispensed very evenly among us.[/b]

[maj0915]

Here are some of the proposed changes I have submitted to the employer:

XXXXX,
I had a chance to look through the contract today, and while it looks good overall, I had a few changes I would like to request to the overall terminology.
1. Would it be possible to change the section stating “Party B’s pretax monthly salary should be RMB _____ Yuan” to “Party B’s post-tax monthly salary should be RMB 5300 Yuan”?
2. Can you please provide me with some additional information regarding the probation period mentioned?
3. Would it be possible to change the section stating “The workload of Party B is no more than 640 hours per year. If the expected workload for the teaching plan is not fulfilled, salary will be partially deducted according to the hourly salary” to “The workload of Party B is no more than 16 hours per week”? Based on other contracts I have examined, the workload has never been listed as “hours per year”, but only “hours per week.”
4. Would it be possible to change “IECD will provide free housing appointed by Party A; provide its necessary furnishings, electronic appliances” to also include “water rate and electricity fees”? Can the sentence reading “Furthermore, furnishing, home appliances, house rental, water rate, electricity fees, and all other related expenses should be paid by Party B”? The second sentence is somewhat confusing, and based on other contracts I have considered, typically the school is responsible for the water and electricity.
5. Can you please clarify the section stating “Regarding holidays and vacation, Party B has the same rights as their Chinese colleagues”?
6. Is it possible to remove the sentence stating “By the end of each term, based on the results of the evaluation from relevant college and students, Party A will make the final decision if Party A would renew the contract of not with Party B”? This clause is unclear to me.
7. Is it possible to modify the section stating that “Party A will help Party B to get all necessary official documents, including Residence Permit, working card, health certificate, foreign expert certificate, etc. Party B shall play all the charges for these documents.” From what I’ve seen, typically the expenses mentioned above are covered by the employer; however, I would be willing to pay for the work visa, as that is an expense incurred in the United States. Would the school be able to cover these expenses, and include the corresponding revisions in the contract?
8. Can the sentence stating that “Party B should not only finish his classroom teaching work but also participate in other relevant teaching activities in the teaching and research section” be clarified, please?

[Javelin of Radiance]

[choudoufu]

[choudoufu]

[Bud Powell]

One thing that all university and vocational college FTs should ask about is "Intensive Practice Week". In Jiangsu Province, this is becoming popular with the VoTech colleges, but it's not mentioned in the contracts.

Intensive Practice Week saddles the FT with one group of students for an entire day for a week. At some schools, it occurs only at the end of the term; at other schools, it occurs at the beginning AND the end of the term. The first time it was sprung on me, the overtime pay was 35rmb per hour. The second time it was sprung on me (I had asked before signing but was told no) I received no overtime pay.

If you're headed toward a public school school of any level, be sure to ask about it and get the overtime pay rate chiseled in stone.