|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:27 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| Very relaxed. Could be because I am used to teaching people how to effectively communicate in English and not memorize a lot of RULES. |
Cool enough if they only need to learn how to order a beer or chat someone up, I suppose (though could definitely argue that even this requires a range of 'rules' from use of modals and expected formalities to verb tense requirements).
Sadly, mine have to communicate like professionals in their field on real international stages where both writing and speaking is governed by actual conventions- which the students welcome. In such contexts, the expected 'rules' provide a needed scaffolding for the complex information and ideas that are the focus of the exercises...
So, boo-hoo, no singing and dancing for my students. Well, not in class anyway.
Also interesting that most of mine come from language learning situations which were quite heavily rule-focused (I mean, these students know the general rules of English grammar to a 't' and would easily argue lots of EFL teachers into the ground!) and yet they somehow also manage to communicate freely, clearly, and very efficiently on all kinds of functional levels. Wonder how that happened?!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Clearly the effect of bean-bag throwing exercises. I have never read an academic paper yet which has not benefited from this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AGoodStory
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Lighten up on the grammar |
|
|
| Professional TEFLer wrote: |
Very relaxed. Could be because I am used to teaching people how to effectively communicate in English and not memorize a lot of RULES.
|
Oh, how my heart is breaking! All these years I've held out hope that reincarnation might bring with it an increased measure of intelligence and wisdom! Another hope dashed! 
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Lighten up on the grammar |
|
|
| Professional TEFLer wrote: |
Very relaxed. Could be because I am used to teaching people how to effectively communicate in English and not memorize a lot of RULES.
|
I still have to use those "rules" each day in my second language or else other people don't understand me  Yes, it's true, I can say "voulez-vous" instead of "tu peux" (formal/informal) and people understand me, but I got tired of being laughed at.
Students here in Quebec use English in their every day life (youth + the internet), and they find that grammar rules are very important for practical communication. I suppose if you have students who don't actually plan to ever use English in their lives or have no interest in academia (mine like to keep their options open for anglophone universities), then it doesn't matter.
Here, it absolutely matters. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LH123
Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 61
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
May I tentatively proffer the following as maxims/gambits:?
1. The 'Standard Dialect' of a language is not ever inherently structurally superior to other dialects; rather, it is the dialect which has been deemed the one most appropriate by the academic and professional communities which dominate socio-economic discourse in any particular socio-political region. By way of example, "ain't ya?" is just as efficient as carrying meaning as "aren't you?" - the difference is how they are perceived - which is a result of social interpretation rather than any sort of innate linguistic superiority/inferiority.
2. So, it makes sense to teach the 'standard' form, to native and non-native speakers alike. Students should be taught how to use their and there correctly; not out of worship for a 'higher' or 'superior' syntactic system (because they are all essentially arbitrary), but because by not being competently familiar with the standard form, they are likely to lose out on social and cultural capital - or, in other words, they will sound uneducated and stupid (rightly or wrongly).
3. This notwithstanding, non-standard dialects should not be unfairly demonised nor looked-down-upon. While it is tempting to assume that speakers/users of non-standard dialects are 'too lazy', 'too stupid' or 'too ignorant' to learn the standard dialect, it's often a lot more complicated than that. The teenager who omits an apostrophe on her latest Facebook status update might, to many of us, have committed an unpardonable crime. But we are not her audience (nor her socio-linguistic community). For her, apostrophe omission might well be the linguistic norm and expectation; indeed, for her, we could be the 'wrong' ones for using apostrophes. Furthermore, it is possible that she has one rule for apostrophes on Facebook with her friends, and another for writing essays for her teachers - which is a kind of linguistic pluralism which I rather like.
Actually, I think I'll have another drink... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Infinite
Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 235
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Being 100% bilingual [4 languages total] and having two fully bilingual children I'd say that grammar is DEFINITELY not as important as some may imply. Having said that, I think as teachers we should not just know it, but also keep on with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dear All,
Long live the teaching of grammar!
Hurrah! Hurrah!
Prescriptive AND descriptive!
GRAMMAR! GRAMMAR! GRAMMAR! If the grammar you can teach, then you must preach!
The greatest book in the history of the world: The Grammar Book by Madame Celce-Murica and Madame Larsen-Freeman. The spine on my copy is broken.
I love me some grammar, emm hmm.
OK, I've made my point. Over and out.
Warm regards,
the_fat_chris_grammarian
Last edited by fat_chris on Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Infinite wrote: |
| Being 100% bilingual [4 languages total] and having two fully bilingual children I'd say that grammar is DEFINITELY not as important as some may imply. Having said that, I think as teachers we should not just know it, but also keep on with it. |
I have to agree. It's not as important as some may imply…
…it's even more important than that.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dear Sasha,
Not only has that tag "Grammar Nazi" annoyed me, but it has also offended me.
Down with the reactionaries and up with the beautiful Grammar Party.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dear respected Comrade Fat_Chris
Double plus good!
'☭' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
