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BruceLeeWannaBe
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 210
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 Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| mike w wrote: |
It's about asking the right people.
The only people who can give you the correct answers are the people who are dealing with your documentation. They will decide what they want, and when they want it. You are at their mercy.
Western ideas invariably don't work in China. Chinese ideas often don't work either, or rather vary from location to location.
Nobody on this forum can give you a hard and fast answer. Only the people you are dealing with. And even then, you can go the office in the morning and they will tell you what documentation they want. Then you can go back to the same office in the afternoon, ask a different person, and get a different answer.
Get used to it my friend, it won't change in your lifetime or in mine.
TIC |
Sounds like they have so much to lose by being direct. Before it wasn't this difficult. And one day, you'll go through something similar. And then you will know what I'm going through. |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| BruceLeeWannaBe wrote: |
| mike w wrote: |
It's about asking the right people.
The only people who can give you the correct answers are the people who are dealing with your documentation. They will decide what they want, and when they want it. You are at their mercy.
Western ideas invariably don't work in China. Chinese ideas often don't work either, or rather vary from location to location.
Nobody on this forum can give you a hard and fast answer. Only the people you are dealing with. And even then, you can go the office in the morning and they will tell you what documentation they want. Then you can go back to the same office in the afternoon, ask a different person, and get a different answer.
Get used to it my friend, it won't change in your lifetime or in mine.
TIC |
Sounds like they have so much to lose by being direct. Before it wasn't this difficult. And one day, you'll go through something similar. And then you will know what I'm going through. |
OK we got it. You were treated horribly, China's a terrible place, and you're not coming. I'm sure you'll never experience any bureaucratic phuckups, pollution, or evildoing anywhere else outside of China. Goodbye. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| And one day, you'll go through something similar. And then you will know what I'm going through. |
You just don't get it, do you?
I'm talking from experience. I've been there already. I know what you are going through. You're not the first, and you won't be the last. I've jumped through the hoops. I've had the run around the block. I've done the yo-yo going back and forth countless times. I've had the fun of FAO's that are totally clueless. You really think that in my 17 years here that everything has been smooth sailing? Thankfully, these days it is smooth sailing for me because the people in my company handle everything for me and they know what they are doing. But for many years it wasn't so.
Like I stated earlier, you won't get a definitive answer from anyone on here. Everyone has had their own different experiences and problems.
The only correct answer you will get is from the people dealing with your documentation. If they decide that they want you to jump through hoops, then through hoops you shall jump. If you don't, then you don't get your visa. The rights or wrongs are totally irrelevant, because this is the way it is. You don't have to like it, but you have to go with it. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Mike W's post is about as sincere as they get.....and there is no need for this quote below as it just sounds like another FT crying "poor me"....
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And one day, you'll go through something similar. And then you will know what I'm going through. |
Bruce, we all know.....
Mike is absolutely correct when he sez.....
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| You really think that in my 17 years here that everything has been smooth sailing? |
as is anyone who has spent anytime here...
No one is unique in their problems here but what we all share is an inability to really change the course of action should the tide turn against you... |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| I did ask. I kept asking my company if there was anything else after the last thing they were told I needed. |
I am sure u did.... I too have felt the frustration of answers prolonging the process....that is why I try and ask 3 different sources, the same query 3 different ways.....
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| So don't you accuse me of not asking. I did ask. And nobody had any answers. |
Bruce put down the self persecution front, no one has accused you of not seeking answers, but to determine the breakdown of the process, you need to examine your role in seeking information. After all is your posting here to seek advice, much of it may not be valuable, or just to seek sympathy... |
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BruceLeeWannaBe
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| NoBillyNO wrote: |
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| I did ask. I kept asking my company if there was anything else after the last thing they were told I needed. |
I am sure u did.... I too have felt the frustration of answers prolonging the process....that is why I try and ask 3 different sources, the same query 3 different ways.....
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| So don't you accuse me of not asking. I did ask. And nobody had any answers. |
Bruce put down the self persecution front, no one has accused you of not seeking answers, but to determine the breakdown of the process, you need to examine your role in seeking information. After all is your posting here to seek advice, much of it may not be valuable, or just to seek sympathy... |
for the record. I never had this problem before. This is why I was completely surprised that it could take literally 6 months just to process two simple documents. You said you've been through this before. Meaning you were back home in whichever country you are from and every two or three weeks they ask you for something else? That's a surprise. Because before this year, all I had to provide was a copy of my degree, tesol certificate, passport, and health report. And that was all they needed. And I'd usually get the documents needed to apply for a z visa within 6 weeks max.
This is literally the first time I ever tried going through this process, and have it drag on for so long. From my experience, it was never like this before. But, since you have your horrible experience, do you care to share it? All the details?
Oh and before I was seeking information. Posting threads explaining where I was at so far. Hoping somebody was a few weeks ahead of me and knew the next big step. But nobody was ahead of me. So info was something I couldn't find here. The only thing I do now is keep posting here trying to warn people curious about China who have never been to China before how hard it is now. And yet I get insulted for that. Of course I'm gonna argue back. What do you all expect? |
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BruceLeeWannaBe
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Like I said. Before it was never this hard. Before it was simple.
1. Degree
2. Passport scanned copy
3. Health report
4. TESOL certificate
5. Resume
Before you would just email scanned copies of those 5 documents to your employer and within 6 weeks or so the work permit and invitation letter was processed. Simple. Easy.
And when I complain that they make it harder by waiting two weeks to tell me I need a criminal record check. Then three weeks later, tell me it needs to be certified at the consulate. Then two weeks later tell me it needs to be translated and originals fed ex'ed to China. And then you guys gotta tell me "well that's the rules". Hmmm. Did any chinese officials publicly state that things must be complicated? And things have to be that way? Did a chinese official make any official statements that the foreign expert bureau is forbidden from telling ESL companies and schools what all the requirements are? Instead they are now legally ordered to ask for one thing at a time every few weeks?
Sorry. But you can't tell me you have been through this. You haven't. I know that because before July 1st when things got strict, it took no more than 6 weeks for the vast majority of us. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Why are you so insistent that you, and only you, are being unfairly persecuted like this?
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| Sorry. But you can't tell me you have been through this. You haven't. I know that because before July 1st when things got strict, it took no more than 6 weeks for the vast majority of us. |
Of course I can tell you that I have been through this type of situation; I suspect some people have been through worse. I'm sorry to say this, but it seems that you don't actually know very much. As I said earlier, you're not the first and you won't be the last.
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Like I said. Before it was never this hard. Before it was simple.
1. Degree
2. Passport scanned copy
3. Health report
4. TESOL certificate
5. Resume |
Really? Before when? How long ago was this? Your list of 5 includes more than I had to provide 16 years ago (and even with less, it still took 14 weeks to get the invitation letter). So now where is your argument?
You still don't seem to get the point. What applies to one person could very well be, and often is different to what is applied to another person. The 'rules' that you were querying at the start of this thread are, in reality, whatever you are told on the day you make your application - and don't be surprised if they are changed midway through the process.
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| Did any chinese officials publicly state that things must be complicated? And things have to be that way? Did a chinese official make any official statements that the foreign expert bureau is forbidden from telling ESL companies and schools what all the requirements are? Instead they are now legally ordered to ask for one thing at a time every few weeks? |
You really do have a big problem understanding the way Chinese officialdom works. Official statements? Legally ordered? You are going a little over the top with this. Central government has issued the requirements and procedure for obtaining an invitation letter and visa. And yes, the 'rules'are pretty clear about the requirements and process. What you seem to have a problem with, is understanding that these 'rules' are translated, interpreted, applied, and misconstrued in a myriad of ways at provincial, city, town, school, and even police station levels. Nobody makes 'rules' to become deliberately obstructive - but each level of officialdom will add, change, or interpret something so they can say 'this is how we do it here'. Yes, it does make life difficult and frustrating - but neither you, nor I, nor anyone else on this forum is going to make them change it. Just accept that you have to jump through these hoops; jump; get your documentation; then move on and start enjoying why you came here. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| But, since you have your horrible experience, do you care to share it? All the details? |
If this question is for me, then I can say I have not had any horrible experience, but I was hired overseas, get paid in foreign currency and have no supervisors in China....I have felt frustration about a number of things from getting a driver's lic to trying to rent a garage for my bikes....I have had to move several times due to the goverment demo's of hutongs. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| BruceLeeWannaBe wrote: |
| .....I was seeking information. Posting threads explaining where I was at so far. Hoping somebody was a few weeks ahead of me and knew the next big step. But nobody was ahead of me. So info was something I couldn't find here. The only thing I do now is keep posting here trying to warn people curious about China who have never been to China before how hard it is now.... |
bro, try to understand that every situation, even when exactly the same, is
completely different. there ain't nobody "a few weeks ahead of you." the
process takes however long the process takes. nobody's experience,
even when dealing with the same offices, will be the same as anyone else's.
the process, when you follow the rules, really is pretty simple and mostly
straightforward. something went wrong in your tiny ecosystem that ain't
happening in most other universes. you're special for some reason. there
was a hiccup when the new rules were announced, mainly caused by
officiacrats not knowing what (if anything) had changed. those same dudes
then drank some lukewarm water, unruffled their fengshui, and things are
pretty much back to normal.
*or maybe it was something caused by your employer? i don't recall the
details.*
you probably were advised here to move on, find a new employer. had you
done that, you would have been here already. advice stands. if you still
wanna come to china, find a new school and try again. odds are it'll be just
too easy, seeing as how you've already got all the paperwork ready. if
you don't, what's the point of continuing to complain? what do you hope
to accomplish? |
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mw182006
Joined: 10 Dec 2012
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see why you all keep indulging this guy with more questions and common sense advice. He's clearly past the point of no return...like A8675309 but more deluded (that might be a stretch).
BLWB, I got here for the very first time in October. I signed the freaking contract in June. Was it frustratingly slow and a pain in the ass at times? Sure. Did anyone on these forums give me the golden ticket you seem to think exists? Nope. It might be better if you just chalked this one up as a loss and moved on. You're not helping anyone. |
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BruceLeeWannaBe
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| mw182006 wrote: |
I don't see why you all keep indulging this guy with more questions and common sense advice. He's clearly past the point of no return...like A8675309 but more deluded (that might be a stretch).
BLWB, I got here for the very first time in October. I signed the freaking contract in June. Was it frustratingly slow and a pain in the ass at times? Sure. Did anyone on these forums give me the golden ticket you seem to think exists? Nope. It might be better if you just chalked this one up as a loss and moved on. You're not helping anyone. |
wasn't looking for a golden ticket. I was looking for advice from others that might be helpful.
It just makes me angry when people try to justify it by saying "well this is china and it's their rules" and all that crap. The least people could do is stop trying to criticize and attack me over this. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| "well this is china and it's their rules" |
Why should that make you angry? If you want to go and work in the UK you have to play by UK rules. If a foreigner wants to go work in the US, he has to play by American rules. So why should playing by Chinese rules to work in China be any different?
Each country has it's own rules. You want to work in that country, you play by that countries rules. I accept that in some countries the rules are VERY different than back home. They can be applied VERY DIFFERENTLY than back home. They make not even make any sense. It may be 'crap'. But however 'crap' you think they are, however much you dislike or disagree with them, however bad they seem when compared to back home, this is the way it works in China.
It is not a justification of anything. It is a simple explanation of how things work in China. |
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BruceLeeWannaBe
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| mike w wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "well this is china and it's their rules" |
Why should that make you angry? If you want to go and work in the UK you have to play by UK rules. If a foreigner wants to go work in the US, he has to play by American rules. So why should playing by Chinese rules to work in China be any different?
Each country has it's own rules. You want to work in that country, you play by that countries rules. I accept that in some countries the rules are VERY different than back home. They can be applied VERY DIFFERENTLY than back home. They make not even make any sense. It may be 'crap'. But however 'crap' you think they are, however much you dislike or disagree with them, however bad they seem when compared to back home, this is the way it works in China.
It is not a justification of anything. It is a simple explanation of how things work in China. |
At least all those other places you mentioned give you a checklist and explain everything from the get go. In China you basically gotta wait weeks on end to find out what the next rule is. I'm not angry at the rules. All I asked is that I am told what all the rules are right feom the beginning. That's it. I just didn't think it was a big concept. |
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Alien1982
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| mw182006 wrote: |
| You're not helping anyone. |
He helped me. Knowing now how hard it is. I also cancelled my plans for China. I was going to move to Beijing. But now I'm beginning to consider Thailand, maybe Taiwan.
Since things are different depending on the chinese province, does anyone know which chinese provinces don't give all the bureaucratic nonsense? If I can figure that one out, I may still consider China.
I can't wait to see Ryu fight Chun Li. |
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