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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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 Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:40 am Post subject: |
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NoBillyNO wrote:
If legal litigation is involved they can hold your passport til settled.
Legal litigation... Please clarify.
Hold your passport... Also clarify this point as well. |
If the judicial of a location accepts a suit against the foreigner then the local PSB can retain the passport. The litigation would not necessarily be based on your contract (legal or otherwise). It is unlikely a company would sue you as to breaking a contract based on a bogus visa, however, if other actions are alleged and the court accepts the suit, then it is another matter. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| NoBillyNO wrote: |
| Quote: |
NoBillyNO wrote:
If legal litigation is involved they can hold your passport til settled.
Legal litigation... Please clarify.
Hold your passport... Also clarify this point as well. |
If the judicial of a location accepts a suit against the foreigner then the local PSB can retain the passport. The litigation would not necessarily be based on your contract (legal or otherwise). It is unlikely a company would sue you as to breaking a contract based on a bogus visa, however, if other actions are alleged and the court accepts the suit, then it is another matter. |
So, a school can go to the local courts, and sue a F/T on some totally bogus, trumped up charges and if the court accepts the case (which a school owner might have connections with) then the local PSB can visit the F/T and "hold" onto their passport, which makes the F/T a prisoner inside China...
What is the likelyhood/possibilty that something like this could happen? |
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teenoso
Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 365
Location: south china
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:03 am Post subject: |
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well, there is no point in being coy about which visa you hold, and who got it you . If it's an 'F' , gotten by the current employer for 'services' , advice , consultancy or whatever, then as BP says, they may have a case , and raise a flag against you in the system , which appears when you next apply for a legal visa.
If the 'F' was gotten by you in HK from an agent who provided a random Shenzhen company invitation letter, with no connection to your employer now, then no problem , I guess. You leave , employer can't inform authorities without self-incriminating. Next time you apply for the legal visa, nothing shows up.
yes connections are all . If your boss is well-connected, beware. I would get out before any problem surfaces. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| Bud Powell wrote: |
I have an 'L' or 'F' visa and have signed a contract with the school.
Which is it? If you have an L visa, nobody has a claim on you. If you signed an agreement to perform certain services for the employer and he can prove that they were necessary to the function of his business but you didn't live up to the agreement, you might be in a sticky situation if you have an F visa.
When does your visa expire? |
What if it were an F-visa?
All else being equal... |
You may be effed. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:26 am Post subject: |
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So, a school can go to the local courts, and sue a F/T on some totally bogus, trumped up charges and if the court accepts the case (which a school owner might have connections with) then the local PSB can visit the F/T and "hold" onto their passport, which makes the F/T a prisoner inside China...
What is the likelyhood/possibilty that something like this could happen? |
Courts in China do not readily accept "suits", but the owner can have relations with the judge just like anywhere else and that may tend to introduce favoritism to any proceedings anywhere. Contract law, labor law and emigration law are separate, thus an illegal contract under labor law or emigration law may still be subject to a suit, however unlikely as it cost time and money and it is easier to replace an FT.....It does happen on a regular basis to those who have been named in suits but not many FT's if any make the kind of coin that warrants this kind of action. It would all depend on the employer and his relationship to the local courts and the evidence he has to file to obtain a lawsuit and request the subject of the law suit is retained for court proceedings. You are not a prisoner but rather someone whose passport has been detained. This is common in many countries.
| Quote: |
| You leave , employer can't inform authorities without self-incriminating. Next time you apply for the legal visa, nothing shows up. |
I wouldn't count on this! |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
So, a school can go to the local courts, and sue a F/T on some totally bogus, trumped up charges and if the court accepts the case (which a school owner might have connections with) then the local PSB can visit the F/T and "hold" onto their passport, which makes the F/T a prisoner inside China...
What is the likelyhood/possibilty that something like this could happen? |
okay, bro, time to come clean. what's really going on here? why are
you beating about the shrubbery? are you on a tourist or business
visa? what "trumped-up" charges do you anticipate?
no point asking vague questions, you'll just get vague answers.
why do you want to break the contract?
what has the employer done that you don't agree with?
i's guessin' you came on a tourist visa, started work, did a visa run
to hong kong for a business visa. okay fine. technically no legal.
but this is china. there is some argument as to whether you can
legally teach for short periods on a business visa. perhaps in some
locations, which may indicate the contract is valid. in other places, no.
so. how 'bout 'fessin up, bro? |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
So, a school can go to the local courts, and sue a F/T on some totally bogus, trumped up charges and if the court accepts the case (which a school owner might have connections with) then the local PSB can visit the F/T and "hold" onto their passport, which makes the F/T a prisoner inside China...
What is the likelyhood/possibilty that something like this could happen? |
okay, bro, time to come clean. what's really going on here? why are
you beating about the shrubbery? are you on a tourist or business
visa? what "trumped-up" charges do you anticipate?
no point asking vague questions, you'll just get vague answers.
why do you want to break the contract?
what has the employer done that you don't agree with?
i's guessin' you came on a tourist visa, started work, did a visa run
to hong kong for a business visa. okay fine. technically no legal.
but this is china. there is some argument as to whether you can
legally teach for short periods on a business visa. perhaps in some
locations, which may indicate the contract is valid. in other places, no.
so. how 'bout 'fessin up, bro? |
The posts are more than clear enough. More detailed info? Nope. Not going to happen.
More than a handful of folks read these forums, as the post and it's questions are written they are clear enough, and other foreign teachers can and have found themselves in the same situation. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| More than a handful of folks read these forums, as the post and it's questions are written they are clear enough, and other foreign teachers can and have found themselves in the same situation. |
It is not clear what kind of situation you have found yourself in. |
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edbuch
Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 34
Location: Gansu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Just as a matter of interest. what if you have a legal work permit but get fed up with your employer and just leave but stay in China. Assuming you don't want to get another job in China, can you just stay as long as you want and go in and out the country on your work permit until it expires? I expect the school will cancel your work permit but would anyone know that? |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| NoBillyNO wrote: |
| Quote: |
| More than a handful of folks read these forums, as the post and it's questions are written they are clear enough, and other foreign teachers can and have found themselves in the same situation. |
It is not clear what kind of situation you have found yourself in. |
The employer broke his contract. That's his situation. It's in his original post.
The OP asked for opinions regarding recourse, not for a trial. |
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teenoso
Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 365
Location: south china
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| edbuch wrote: |
| Just as a matter of interest. what if you have a legal work permit but get fed up with your employer and just leave but stay in China. Assuming you don't want to get another job in China, can you just stay as long as you want and go in and out the country on your work permit until it expires? I expect the school will cancel your work permit but would anyone know that? |
This has come up before and it seems unclear what would happen. If they cancel your work permit, because the Residence Permit in your passport is tied to the employer, your RP may also be cancelled. But this would only show up when you leave China, and then you might need tp pay a fine, or be put on a 'visa' blacklist for overstaying.
I guess it is your responsibilty to make sure you have a legal visa at all times. |
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BruceLeeWannaBe
Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| True, the contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on, therefore not legally binding. But, if that school has alot of guanxi, that school could find a way to do something. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Bud Powell
| Quote: |
The employer broke his contract. That's his situation. It's in his original post.
The OP asked for opinions regarding recourse, not for a trial. |
Bud Powell
Well BUD, your advice is sterling. Carry On. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| teenoso wrote: |
| edbuch wrote: |
| Just as a matter of interest. what if you have a legal work permit but get fed up with your employer and just leave but stay in China. Assuming you don't want to get another job in China, can you just stay as long as you want and go in and out the country on your work permit until it expires? I expect the school will cancel your work permit but would anyone know that? |
This has come up before and it seems unclear what would happen. If they cancel your work permit, because the Residence Permit in your passport is tied to the employer, your RP may also be cancelled. But this would only show up when you leave China, and then you might need tp pay a fine, or be put on a 'visa' blacklist for overstaying.
I guess it is your responsibilty to make sure you have a legal visa at all times. |
If your visa has expired on the immigration system even though your passport hasn't been changed, aren't you liable for the daily over stayer fee?
Could be a shock if you've spent all your money.
Last edited by Non Sequitur on Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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roadwalker
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| If the teacher is qualified for a work visa, and the school is authorized to sponsor a teacher on a work visa, there really is no reason to come to China on any other visa. Why limit your options in the future? True, the process can drag on at times, even when everyone all around is qualified. But once you go down the short-cut route, it may be difficult to avoid bad consequences in the current job, and in the future. If you are not qualified anyway, well, take your chances. But have a backup plan and $ resources to leave a bad situation, should it become necessary. |
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