Job Discussion Forums

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I have already said that I am sometimes swayed by oratory, when skilled.

However, to answer your implied criticism, I did understand your comment. I am questioning, though, why it is that English teachers should think that they should engage in 'critical thinking' lessons, and no modern language teacher would do so? Surely it is fallacious thinking to believe that a language lesson is a suitable venue for lessons in logic?

John: " Moreover, I doubt that logical and fallacious thinking have any national boundaries; they're not, I'd say, confined to "the West."

The above is of course true. Yet, this pernicious untruth that we have a role in developing the critical faculties of our learners IS confined to English language teachers, from what I have seen at least.


Best wishes

Sasha

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

By the way, some might say that it is rather naughty to put two different, basically unconnected quotations together as though one was a direct response to the other. Tsk tsk. Let us see if any other posters read the statements as you have presented them...


Best wishes

Sophistical Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

It would depend, wouldn't it, on what our objectives are and what our students bring to the class?

One of the objectives in my ESL Transitions classes is to teach my students to write five-paragraph Persuasive and Argumentative essays with clarity and unity (among other elements).

Most of my students come to the class unable to detect fallacies in what they read. Many will think that the fallacious reasoning is actually correct.

Wouldn't you say that in order to write a good Persuasive or Argumentative essay, a writer should be able to employ logic and avoid fallacies?

But if your students are unable to see a fallacy, will they be able to write a fallacy-free, logical Persuasive/ Argumentative essay?

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Speaking of our own reading skills : )

Sasha said: "However, whichever way one uses it, I still maintain that beyond highly specific areas like written compostion, discourse management, or exam reading skills and so, we as TEFL teachers have no real business attempting to impart 'critical thinking skills'."

None of which is what the majority of TEFLers seem to mean, however, when they rail against the backwardness of their learners, and their classes' inability 'to think critically', apparently because of Confucianism/Islam/socialised education or whatever bugbear annoys said teachers in their chosen benighted land.


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[steki47]

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

OK, you got me. But (and you KNEW there's be a "but" coming, didn't you?) I'd say you opened up a pretty big hole in that "no teaching critical thinking"
rule.

"beyond highly specific areas like written compostion, discourse management, or exam reading skills."

Do you think that most EFL/ESL teachers don't instruct in such areas? I would think that at least some/many of us do.

Regards,
John

[mk87]

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Not a hole, but a minor concession. I'm not all too sure that any but a small minority of us need to teach 'critical thinking' skills, e.g. in exams or academic writing classes etc.

Of more concern to me is the notion that learners from a particular ethnic group cannot distinguish between truth and opinion statements. I doubt you'd hold that either, but I know of certain colleagues who do. I would be more inclined to account for any difficulties on the learners' part by suggesting that they may not be identifying English discourse markers etc. more than anything else. In this, there is basically not much difference in similar failures to transfer other L1 reading skills, such as reading for inferences in English. This doesn't mean that they cannot read per se. And doesn't mean they cannot think!

If learners really do have problems with 'critical thinking/reading/writing', this would seem to be a matter of their general education, and so raises issues re the role of EFL teachers in the greater scheme of things - but where do we then draw the line?

In any case, none of this is what most teachers who use the phrase 'critical thinking' mean when they use the phrase. They appear to really mean that they need to help teach the learners how to think and stop being backward. Basically become more American/British/whatever. This is what I find odious - it could come from a handbook of colonial administration, no matter how much the sentiment comes draped in concern for the sava... ahem! learners.

Newbies, beware!!

Best wishes

Anti-imperialist Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Well, in my experience of teaching Saudi students, virtually all of them had a lot of trouble with cause/effect relationships. I used to wonder (and still do) if this was in any way connected to what is sometimes called "the inshallah mentality."

A good number of Saudi at least express the opinion that their behavior is not really connected to a result. For example, someone who drives at high speeds and recklessly will think, "If Allah wills that I am going to have an accident, then I will have one, no matter how I drive."

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I have seen similar attitudes with Turks on the road in Istanbul. But I'd still be wary of taking too far our own analysis as to what this foible means and whence it springs.

Also, we may be just as guilty in other ways ourselves. Plenty of my American friends seem to buy into the American Dream, and have never really thought about why. They have blind faith in the notion that if they work hard all their lives, they'll be 'successful', and seem to think the former always leads to the latter. Despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary... Especially in TEFL, where they claim to teach critical thinking


Best wishes

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha.

I AM the American Dream - and so is this guy. Introducing Dusty Rhodes: The American Dream

"If you’re not following The American Dream on twitter and you are any kind of wrestling fan, I question your resolve. Rhodes is a twitter rookie but already has one of the most entertaining accounts around. I understand about 75 percent of what he says but am entertained by all of it.

I was talking to professional wrestler John Kermon online and he told me he can’t help but hear Dusty’s voice every time he reads one of these tweets. I’d have to concur. For some reason twitter just seems to fit Rhodes personality perfectly and I can completely picture him saying anything he types. Instant follow.

http://chaddukeswrestlingshow.com/2011/12/11/dusty-rhodes-is-on-twitter-and-its-awesome/#more-1924

And in case your memory fails you, here's a photo of The American Dream in all jis glory and splendor.

http://chaddukeswrestlingshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/bio-dustyrhodes.jpg.png

Regards,
John
The Other American Dream

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Diversionary tactics are so Orientalist, like, man. Where's the reasoned rebuttal from an Occidental critical thinker?

Disappointed over here, gotta say...


Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Good grief, I don't actually THINK critically - I just teach it. .

Regards,
Uncritical John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Feel an overused Wilde epigram coming on... Trying hard to resist... Trying... Trying!,,,

Ah! I'll have a drink instead!


Sasha

[MuscatGary]

The insh'allah mentality isn't necessarily restricted to Muslims. There was a post on the Phillipines forum the other day basically advising against sending cash aid and stating that god will save them.....