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[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

OK. But I still say any 'Advanced' learner who has serious issues with this is not really all that advanced. Depends how you use the term advanced. Most definitions will include good control over verb forms and tenses - with few restrictions.

With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

So, do you have such Advanced students? Or, for that matter, does any other poster of this thread, students who have few or no problems always using the right tense and forming it correctly?

Regards,
John

[Shelby]

I am concerned that I have several learners in their last year of school and facing a major exam. Whilst they are perfectly comfortable with using the present in reported speech when appropriate their teachers often say that this is incorrect and they must move the tense backwards.

I worry that the examiners will be non-native speakers and will therefore not accept this.

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

If you mean do I have students with 100% accuracy, then of course not. But I do have some seriously impressive learners all the same. CAE/CPE standard. They only make the occasional slip, and they can self-correct. Of course, nothing strange there.

Not that that is the point by any stretch. Even my low intermediates manage to deal with reported speech just fine. Not always accurate, but they deal with the concept with ease after a very short time.

Why is this a bone of contention, by the way? This grammatical info couldn't be new for you, surely? Not after 35-odd years in the field. What is going on?


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

The "grammatical info" (not sure just what "info" that was), no. But I will admit that in all my years of teaching, with many of classes being "Advanced," I have seldom had students who mastery of English tenses was such that they would make only the "occasional slip" AND then "self-correct."

Again, I envy you your students. Evidently I've been working in the wrong places.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I still think that it is the definition of Advanced that is the heart of the matter here. Your description doesn't match mine, which is from the CEFR descriptors of levels.

With Communist greetings

Sasha

[spiral78]

[johnslat]

Dear spiral78,

"They're out there!!"

Like the truth in the X-files, at least in my experience. Oh, I believe you. However, I suspect not too many EFL/ESL teachers - even those who teach the "Advanced" levels - experience too many students who seldom make tense errors (and, on the rare occasions that they do, self-correct).

Such students are = again only in my experience - as so described actually better users of English than a good many native-speaker college students here in the US. .

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

These learners are a commonplace where I operate. Perhaps the issue is comparing everything to the States?


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Comparing everything to the States, Iran, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, and Japan, perhaps.

Or maybe the difficulty in in not comparing.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

There is still the possibility that the 'Advanced' classes that you taught, in any of those regions, were nothing of the sort. Just because students are in an Advanced class doesn't always make them so. Being able to use most verb forms correctly most of the time is not such a rarity for learners who really are advanced.

Seriously confused now as to why this has become such an issue. It is a fairly conventional descriptor of that level.


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Actually, I'm glad the topic came up - I've learned some things. Here, for example, is partial list of level descriptors:

"Advanced level (level B1-B2*)
The student masters the structure of the foreign language, both oral and written. He/she is capable of expressing him/herself confidently in various situations and of understanding the language spoken by natives. He/she is still recognised by the prudent use of the language, his/her expressions learned by heart or the absence of idiomatic expressions.

Very advanced level (level C1*)
The student understands almost everything, including idiomatic expressions. In spite of occasional errors, he/she is close to mother tongue level, even in complex situations.

Proficiency level (level C1-C2*)
Acquired without doubt following a long stay in immersion, the student masters the foreign language fluently and with precision. At a level sometimes superior to that of some native speakers, with perhaps less idiomatic expressions."

http://www.esl-languages.com/en/study-abroad/adults/levels-and-progression/index.htm

Here, also, is a level descriptor for a "High Advanced Grammar" class:

ESL 48: High Advanced Grammar 3.0 Units
(formerly ESL 114)
Students at high advanced level learn and apply rules of English
grammar and structure for use in oral and written communication. This
course provides review practice and expanded study of phrasal verbs
and introduces passive forms, conditional statements, adjective
clauses, and indirect speech. This course will not apply to the
Associate Degree. 48-54 hours lecture. (No prerequisite. Grade
Option) This course may be taken two times.

http://www.vvc.edu/academic/english_as_second_language/courses.shtml

I suspect that there are two problems: 1. there are few widely-accepted descriptors for adult ESL/EFL learners proficiency levels; and 2. "Advanced" seems to be a very relative term.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I am glad to be of service to you, as always. However, I am not sure about your sources there, or the levels described.

B1+ - B2 loosely corresponds to Intermediate and Upper-Intermediate level

C1 ia Advanced

C2 is Very Advanced

At least that is the descriptor from this course book series, English Unlimited:

http://www.cambridge.org/servlet/file/Intermediate+CEF+map.pdf?ITEM_ENT_ID=6452717&COLLSPEC_ENT_ID=7

You can also check out the CEFR/EAQUALS descriptors here. The language used to describe learner abilities is much more precise than in your source:

http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/education/elp/elp-reg/Source/Key_reference/EAQUALSBank_levels_EN.pdf


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I think I can see where the misunderstanding may have arisen....

ESL 48: High Advanced Grammar 3.0 Units
(formerly ESL 114)
Students at high advanced level learn and apply rules of English
grammar and structure for use in oral and written communication. This
course provides review practice and expanded study of phrasal verbs
and introduces passive forms, conditional statements, adjective
clauses, and indirect speech.

No way these are structures introduced to Advanced classes. Sorry, but this is a misuse of the term Advanced as understood by those who know anything about levels - even a basic knowledge.


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[Sashadroogie]

"Proficiency level (level C1-C2*)
Acquired without doubt following a long stay in immersion, the student masters the foreign language fluently and with precision. At a level sometimes superior to that of some native speakers, with perhaps less idiomatic expressions."

Ha ha!! How about fewer idiomatic expressions? My C1 students would scoff at this : ) So maybe there is a kernel of truth in this sentiment : ))) Unless the writer was trying to suggest that some expressions are more idiomatic than others, and C1 learners wouldn't know them...

And since when is C1 possible without a doubt only after a long stay in immersion?

Suspect, very suspect....