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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:20 am Post subject: |
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My concern is selective enforcement of the law. Let's say a principal who hired you on an L visa owes you a bunch of back pay or overtime and knows when your visa expires. She can get away with not paying you and if you protest, call the cops and get you deported.
Also for NoBillyNo: One of the teachers that was deported was my neighbor and his Chinese GF spent almost an hour begging the PSB guys to give he BF another chance because he just got a scholarship to attend BFSU but those guys were cold-blooded and told her that they are no longer allowed to make any exceptions. She even offered the guy $1,000 and he didn't care. It was this PSB lieutenant that told her they deported over 400 teachers since last July and fined over a thousand. |
Selective enforcement comes with regulation ..otherwise there is nothing to selectively enforce...the situation as to payment or non-payment is not protected by the requirement of schools to abide by regulations...their legal so what do they care... you have a pay complaint .. take it to SAFEA... if the employer doesn't want to settle.. he can just say no.....on to arbitration and if no compromise, then back to court..(think of the min wage law in the US....it only guarantees the min wage no mater what your salary or hourly wage is and this is regulated)... .. but then again ... this is not about protecting those with proper credentials but with regulation of the industry .... 1st 1000 is a drop in a bucket compared to what they could gain with graft .... 2nd....he was attending school on a L visa? As far as I know.... students arrive on a L and are converted to a student visa....3rd over 400 teachers... with a deportation that big.. there would be FT's heading for the hills....I'm just saying....someone should be talking about this .. big time .....not saying it ain't so, (Porgy & Bess reference) but if it is true....it is the most quiet of enforcement actions I have heard about in Beijing.. heck they even have a website that tells what the cops are doing .. kind of a diary of police action ... the fines ... that was your original question .. as i understand it .. they can take all your money..... after all... it was made illegally.... |
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thebroformerlyknownaschou
Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. English wrote: |
| I suspect many of the preachers on this site who have Z visas also take side jobs including private students, which is of course illegal. ........it is difficult to compete with illegally moonlighting Z visa holders who are willing to work for ridiculously low rates. |
are privates illegal? i'd ask for a link to the chinese law, but we all know
what 'the law' means in china, right.....open to interpretation. as to the
illegality, why then do safea standard contracts permit working second jobs
with permission of the sponsoring employer?
do (possibly) illegally moonlighting z-visa holders charge less then
(definitely) illegally moonlighting l-visa holders?
| NoBillyNO wrote: |
| ....2nd....he was attending school on a L visa? As far as I know.... students arrive on a L and are converted to a student visa..... |
nah. workers arrive on a work visa, converted to an RP. students arrive
on a student visa, converted to an RP. (under 6 months can use bid'ness
visa). TOURISTS arrive on a tourist visa, with no conversion to RP.
that l-visa is (shockingly) intended for short-term tourism and leaving. |
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Mr. English
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Bro - Best I can do after a bit of a search is this:
"Illegal Employment & Tougher Penalties
The New Law provides, for the first time, a clear definition for “illegal employment” of expatriates as any of the following:
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working beyond the scope stated in work permit (i.e., moonlighting);
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or for an employer other than the one that sponsored the work permit… ."
Quoted from
http://www.beneschlaw.com/Impact-on-Expats-and-their-Employers-of-Chinas-Updated-Visa-Laws---Now-In-Effect-07-12-2013/
And yes, enforcement of any law in China is subject to how far the local powers that be are willing to go along with the glorious overlords in Beijing. |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Deportation of China Foreign Teachers |
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| RWA1981 wrote: |
My concern is selective enforcement of the law. Let's say a principal who hired you on an L visa owes you a bunch of back pay or overtime and knows when your visa expires. She can get away with not paying you and if you protest, call the cops and get you deported.
Also for NoBillyNo: One of the teachers that was deported was my neighbor and his Chinese GF spent almost an hour begging the PSB guys to give he BF another chance because he just got a scholarship to attend BFSU but those guys were cold-blooded and told her that they are no longer allowed to make any exceptions. She even offered the guy $1,000 and he didn't care. It was this PSB lieutenant that told her they deported over 400 teachers since last July and fined over a thousand.
The couple is devastated and they would not even let him stay in China long enough to get married. That 3 year reentry ban was the killer because her chances of getting a marriage visa are not very good with him not in the country any more.
I think the key if caught is to be super remorseful and write that apology letter they want. I wonder what they do with those letters anyway? |
So buddy broke the law and got caught and deported, and that makes the cops "cold hearted"?
I'm sorry but I have zero pity for him or anyone in a similar situation.
It is not at all difficult to get a legitimate job here.
If you break the law and get caught, it's on you, not the people who catch you. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
students arrive
on a student visa, converted to an RP |
I went to university classes last year.....and all came on a L visa and coveted....not saying some don't come on student visas.. but it is normal to convert an L visa to a student status....last year I was the only one in class who didnt have to go and covert my L visa to a student visa...as I had the work book and RP....
| Quote: |
So buddy broke the law and got caught and deported, and that makes the cops "cold hearted"?
I'm sorry but I have zero pity for him or anyone in a similar situation. |
Perhaps the degree in which the punishment was delivered as opposed to the degree of past enforcement was what the poster was addressing when he spoke of the cold hearted nature.. and if he is a cop.. he is cold hearted.. period.. |
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thebroformerlyknownaschou
Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. English wrote: |
The New Law provides, for the first time, a clear definition for “illegal employment” of expatriates as any of the following:
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working beyond the scope stated in work permit (i.e., moonlighting);
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or for an employer other than the one that sponsored the work permit…." |
okay, then. seems illegal privates are going to be, um, really illegal now.
(but don't the new laws allow foreign students part-time work?)
that would mean students and businesspeople looking for tutoring from real
foreigners will have one option -- enroll at an established language school
that has the legal permits to legally hire legally-working foreigners.
more great news! ft's that want to work legally will have even less
low-paid illegal competition! reduced illegal supply means more hours and
more moneys for legally-hired teachers.
and the happily-lazy 12-hour uni perfessor can truthfully say the mean
old government won't let me tutor your 6-year-old!
what's not to love? |
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Mr. English
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| But if the "established language school" is First or Wall or Main the pay ain't so great, and the teachers aren't necessarily native speakers. I have personally met Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, and French who have worked at these places. One teacher who had worked at First for a few years told me that she "didn't need to think anymore" during her classes as she had taught them all so many times. And the university types … they get special dispensation: no need to follow any rules and all other foreign teachers must kowtow when the university types pontificate on the "evil others" who break rules. |
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thebroformerlyknownaschou
Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. English wrote: |
| But if the "established language school" is First or Wall or Main the pay ain't so great, and the teachers aren't necessarily native speakers. .... |
please re-read the prior two pages. we're talkin' bout how things are (maybe)
gonna be with the new visa regulations. you're talkin' bout how things
was before.
irregardless, do i understand your meaning? the pay is bad, the non-native
speaker teachers are sub-standard. the rules that aren't rules really aren't
enforced anyway......therefore, china should not change? |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to the world of market forces. It doesn't matter how much spin anyone puts on this, working illegally is working illegally. I have to agree with others here, it can only be a good thing. Regulation and competition have the potential to improve both pay and conditions for teachers and the quality of teaching. Of course, there will be some 'collateral damage'. I'm sure there are many very good teachers who can't get an RP, just as there are many terrible teachers who can. No system is perfect, but any imperfect system has the potential to improve.
What staggers me about discussions like this is how many people accept the elasticity of the law and it's application in China, when they come from countries that don't allow the same thing. Indeed, many people are here in China because of that elasticity. The law is the law, whether we like it or not. If we don't like it, we have the choice of leaving China and returning to countries in which we have means to change it, or at least pretending we do, by exercising our democratic rights. The day's of entitled citizens from developed countries hiding out in less developed countries in order to take advantage of that lack of development are coming to an end. Personally, I can't see a downside to that. |
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RWA1981
Joined: 27 Mar 2014
Posts: 143
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I wasn't here in China two years ago but I am told by the veteran teachers that there was more leniency in the past and teachers were just fined and given a warning. Maybe that pedophile teacher and those two Chinese TAs getting raped, or the cop getting beat up by a drunk FT had something to do with the big change in enforcement? |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| NoBillyNO wrote: |
| Quote: |
So buddy broke the law and got caught and deported, and that makes the cops "cold hearted"?
I'm sorry but I have zero pity for him or anyone in a similar situation. |
Perhaps the degree in which the punishment was delivered as opposed to the degree of past enforcement was what the poster was addressing when he spoke of the cold hearted nature.. and if he is a cop.. he is cold hearted.. period.. |
Doesn't change the fact that he was breaking the law, knew he was breaking the law, knew he was taking a risk in being caught, but decided money was more important than any future plans he had with his girlfriend/career in China.
I tell every single new teacher at my school the exact same thing when they arrive. There's no way we can stop you from doing private lessons because we're not about to monitor your every move. However, if you get caught by us, you will get fired, if you get caught by the government you will get fired and possibly face deportation with a ban.
Those are the rules and anyone who breaks them knows what they are doing is wrong but is pulled by greed into doing something illegal.
I love how once someone gets caught they get all apologetic and remorseful, however I doubt they were even thinking about it while making a couple hundred an hour teaching on the week-ends.
Like doogsville said, working illegally is working illegally, your not paying tax on your earnings, your breaking the terms of your contract, and it looks like especially now your breaking the terms of your residence permit.
So, now you know!
If you do it, and get caught, don't come whining here saying you got deported by the cold-hearted cops who are doing there jobs, because I doubt you'll be getting much sympathy. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Doesn't change the fact that he was breaking the law, knew he was breaking the law, knew he was taking a risk in being caught, but decided money was more important than any future plans he had with his girlfriend/career in China. |
Again, that post was addressing the degree of enforcement currently being alleged....as to the facts... not sure they even come to play in this post....as the person this happen to hasn't posted
| Quote: |
If you do it, and get caught, don't come whining here saying you got deported by the cold-hearted cops who are doing there jobs, because I doubt you'll be getting much sympathy. |
warning or a disclaimer....anyone who has any dealing with COPS has my sympathy....no one here has said they were deported.....
About 200 foreigners have been deported from Beijing in 2013....some of the 200 were detained in other provinces and sent to the capital to be deported ..... most of the "deportees" were from developing countries. coming for work or were traveling through China to illegally enter other countries.....some of the 200 were intercepted at airports holding fake visas or passports.
Those deported are not allowed back into China for five years.
Remember the foreigner who knocked over a woman with his motorbike....along with the traffic snafu his residence certificate in Beijing had also expired...
Not sure this is the enforcement FT's have been salivating over ...... but if the figure is 400 and they be all teachers and they all were detained since 2014 started ...... someone has a gold star next to their names during police roll-call... |
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bobdaun
Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Just a quick comment on the above link to "beneschlaw.com".
In there it states that holders of business visas, no matter how long the visa is valid for, will be subject to a 90 day cumulative stay limit in any one year. This means that you will only be able to stay for a maximum of 90 days in a calendar year, and the clock can't be reset by simply leaving and returning, or getting a new visa.
They state this quite emphatically, but the experience of many of my friends is completely different (I myself am here on a work permit).
I have a number of friends who are not teachers, but rather are here as company representatives, or are otherwise employed by firms abroad, and are here on business visas. Some of them have 90 day visas which need to be renewed, some of 6 month or 12 month visas with a stay limit of 60 days, which means a quick trip to Hong Kong ever couple of months to get an exit and re-entry stamp.
However, none of them have ever heard of a 90 day cumulative stay limit. They are all here legally, registered with the PSB etc., and have never had any problem at the border when they go over and come straight back. I would think that if this really was a new immigration policy then the border checks would enforce it - not like the local PSB deciding on a whim whether or not to deport the laowai who got caught teaching on a tourist visa. After all, when you go through the border the stamps are there in you passport for them to see exactly how long you have been in country.
Anyway, I thought it might be worth pointing this out, maybe we should take some of the other assertions by some of the "immigration specialist law firms" about the new rules with a pinch of salt. |
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weigookin74
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Simon in Suzhou wrote: |
| NoBillyNO wrote: |
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| A "regulated" industry where the work visa laws are enforced will not kill the industry. It will hopefully kill many of the shady private language mills. No big loss. |
Simon in Suzhou, regulating this industry could close companies costing jobs and not all of them are shady....plus government should be there to keep the industry safe but streamlined to the point to where it doesn't inhibit in any way the FT's ability to choose for themselves what they will do.
Many times regulation causes as many problems as no-regulation as certain inequities are created by the government especially favoring the bigger or financially fat of the industry. I for one do not need government looking out for me, preferring to make up my own mind as to what is acceptable in business. For example the finance sector is the most heavily regulated part of the American economy but that didn't stop stupendously huge debts from drowning many folk who just lined up to take advantage of deregulated loans.
The PRC is meant to be the home of laissez-faire.....regulations are not hubris.....also if the Chinese gov set forth and polices these regulations it could create a huge incentive for economically fat schools to push for special favors. |
Interesting how you have decided what the PRC is or isn't meant to be. Seems like that's really not your role. As far as your example of the financial sector being "the most heavily regulated part of the American economy,' that is simply ridiculous. The banking crisis that took place was precisely because the banking lobby spent about a decade getting their sector DE-REGULATED to the point to where they could give high-risk loans to nearly anyone and then GAMBLE on whether those loans would fail or not, thus insuring themselves a massive windfall. Those exact loans you are describing were ILLEGAL 20 years ago when that sector really was regulated. It was not regulation that caused those problems. Do some homework instead of listening to the PR firms of the banking sector.
Sorry, the ONLY thing this crackdown is stopping is "teachers" who don't have the most minimal educational requirements in order to get a proper work visa, and thus the companies who prefer to get backpackers or Czech nationals who tell their students they are American or British teachers! The parents paying for this "business model" are certainly not being told the truth!
After spending 6 years studying and over $70,000 for my qualifications, I have no problem with the rabble who bought their degrees on a side street in Thailand for 50 bucks being thrown out. Boo hoo. |
I consider myself partially centrist, partially conservative, and partially libertarian, but I agree with your bolded part 110%. Why most of those CEO's never ended up in jail is beyond reason (except for the ones you provided of course).
I think groups like the Tea Party and Occupy wall Street rose up in protest of this BS. The Tea party started after 2009, when folks were left scratching their heads wondering what happened. How could the party of fiscal responsibility mismanage the economy so and run big deficits? (Republicans)
Occupy started, though seems to have fizzled out, because Democrats wrote legislation in congress bailing them out and allowed all those dirtbags on Wall Street to collect their bonuses. At the same time, these execs getting their bonuses nearly destroyed the global economy and were greedily shafting people and taking their homes refusing to renogiate bad sub prime loans.
I'm a big believer in free enterprise, but when you get money from the government in a bailout and can't show the same mercy that was shown you by renogiating interest rates on home mortgages, it tends to fuel a lot of anger. When Fox bashes Occupy and MSNBC bashes the tea Party, neither side is being intellectually honest and is just reporting what they're told to report by those at the top.
Point is there is a stink in both parties. I liked Reagan a lot, but he would turn over in discust in his grave at things today.
I mention this in response to another writing about "Teabag", also.
Some regulation is necessary. But, if it becomes too much, it does slow growth. Look to Japan and the lost decades and the power of their bureacracy stifling the little guy if he wants to start a business. Over regulation is a job killer as the little guy can't afford fancy accountants, lobbyists, lawyers and the like. In Japan, the big companies and the governmnet have the power in a type of Corporate Cronyism. At the same time, some folks are crooks given the chance and do need some safegaurds to create a level playing field. Big banks that can crash the economy with bad decisions do need more oversight.
While, I'm right of center, Republicans need a butt kicking. But so do the other side. Both seem beholden to their core constituencies and their issues rather than that of regular working folks. Nothing is what we have been told (especially by our professors).
Sorry to go off on a rant, but we all should think of more than cliches and slogans.
Anyways, those without degrees when we have them and the debt to go with them do need to be booted out. Why is it fair for them to depress wages and working conditions when we all worked for what we have? Enforcing the rules such as 2 years teaching experience and having a degree won't keep put all the creeps and bums, but will keep out most who would give us a bad name.
This ---> "I wasn't here in China two years ago but I am told by the veteran teachers that there was more leniency in the past and teachers were just fined and given a warning. Maybe that pedophile teacher and those two Chinese TAs getting raped, or the cop getting beat up by a drunk FT had something to do with the big change in enforcement?" |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyways, those without degrees when we have them and the debt to go with them do need to be booted out. Why is it fair for them to depress wages and working conditions when we all worked for what we have? Enforcing the rules such as 2 years teaching experience and having a degree won't keep put all the creeps and bums, but will keep out most who would give us a bad name. |
There is no proof there is a depression of wages due to these non degree holder...and how would they effect living conditions.....and as of now, not much enforcement other than a rumor is happening... and since their is no vetting process... there is no way to enforce the rules.... |
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