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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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 Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: |
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I hold multiple degrees across multiple disciplines (sort of a professional student). I completed my most recent one last March (PhD). They were all brick and mortar.
I have houses in Vancouver Canada and on Bohol Island in the Philippines. The house in Canada was purchased in 2012 and the one on Bohol in 2008.
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If eastern european countries struggle with supply meeting demand then it would make it easier for those without university degrees to obtain a teaching contract. Having an EU passport would probably negate the need to obtain a university degree for visa reasons. |
There is no such struggle - there are teachers around. This is why it's very rare in Central Europe, and only common via McSchools in the East, to get any job from abroad - there are simply quite a lot of teachers already here on the ground, ready to interview in person.
An EU passport makes some difference in Central Europe, but not much in the East.
Public (state) schools employ qualified locals to teach languages, generally up through university level with few exceptions (and those exceptions are highly qualified related grad degree holders in almost all cases). Foreign English teachers (native English speakers) generally work for private language schools providing teachers for their business clients, as I noted on your other thread. Almost all adults in this region have a university degree; it's basic and considered standard. It is true, as I noted earlier, that a school will have candidates with BOTH CELTA and degree, and given that teachers need to have some credibility with their clients, will usually opt for the teacher with the degree, given that they've got a choice - and they almost always do. |
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lucifer911
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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I am sort of annoyed at the responses here so I'll loosely respond to noone in particular as to why I object to finishing my university degree. I live in Australia and I can tell you the situation here is not good for students studying for a degree. Our government has turned our universities into money making empires which favour international students who pay 2-3x more money in fees upfront courtesy of wealthy parents (usually indian, malaysian and chinese). Universities are MEANT to be academic institutes which help citizens become more productive and resourceful in the economy. Instead our universities have created students with huge debts that they cannot repay. Google Tony Abbott, our prime minister, who chose to skip a university appearance due to threats of violence from students due to yet another increase in university fees. Maybe you guys live in a different country where university is more affordable for less wealthy people or maybe you were fortunate enough to have parents pay for your university degree. I have been working nonstop ever since I have enrolled in university and I am not close in paying my debt off. Money doesn't grow on trees here and we have enough indian students taking up our jobs which is making it harder for domestic students to be debt free let alone getting a job after graduation.
I already have a 15k university debt and I would have to increase it by another 10k to finish a 4 year bachelors degree. Most ESL jobs specify a degree as a *desired* requirement but they do not specify whether the degree has to be teaching or in linguistics. I am also annoyed at the fact an ESL teacher with a degree still earns a mediocre wage. The extra burden I am putting on myself to finish a degree just doesn't seem worth it unless I choose a middle eastern country (UAE, Saudi Arabia etc)
The fact I am learning the russian language and willing to pay for the most expensive TEFL course (CELTA) should be seen as a desirable quality. Secondly, if I can achieve intermediate fluency in russian theoretically I should be ahead of someone with a degree but has no knowledge of russian or any other second language. I have noticed quite a few teachers work in russia with a degree but barely know more than 2 words in russian. A teacher who has intermediate fluency in a second language will be a better teacher than someone with a non relevant degree and no knowledge of a second language. Please explain how a teacher who is monolingual makes a more effective teacher than someone who undertakes extensive lessons to become fluent in a second language?
I get the impression here that only people with degrees are successful and make good teachers. Again I go back to Bill Gates who has no degree in software engineering or computer science but still managed to build the most successful software company the world will ever see. The TEFL qualification gives me the tools and guidelines to become an effective teacher and I am already a native english speaker.
I am not against the idea of university education but I despise what western universities have turned into. (money making empires who care about profits rather than educating people and getting them into jobs). A lot of my colleagues in university have always said they wished they took up an apprenticeship because at least most apprenticeships pay you while you learn and get you a job once you finish it.
So many university courses are next to useless when it comes to getting a job. Bachelor of Arts for example doesn't qualify you as any sort of profession unlike dentistry, accountancy, pharmacy, and all the medical degrees.
Perhaps in the future if I land on a pot of gold I will complete my university degree but right now I just want to make a start towards becoming a teacher without needing to worry about incurring a bigger debt. |
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Kofola
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 159
Location: Slovakia
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds as if you are particularly keen on Russia. My own experience of Russia is that students expect their teachers to be well-qualified. That means being university educated and having the relevant teaching qualifications. I have experienced students being disconcerted to discover that teachers may only have a CELTA cert and an unrelated degree instead of a teaching degree.
Getting a degree may be becoming more difficult in the West but that is unlikely to be of interest to the student. What the student wants is a well-qualified teacher. There are plenty of highly qualified local teachers and I'd say around half the native speaker teachers I came across spoke Russian and/or other Slav languages. |
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lucifer911
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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yes I am keen on Russia I feel as though I belong there because I despise capitalism. The price of college and university in United States is ridiculous. They have lost most of their manufacturing jobs to China so I really wonder how students intend to repay their loans when unemployment in USA will keep rising. The fees for their Ivy League universities will not decrease when unemployment increases.
I doubt russian universities charge russians the same price australian universities charge australian students. I do get your point you are trying to make with russians expecting teachers to have degrees.. but like I said I despise the idea of incurring a debt which will not be paid off through teaching. Maybe teaching english is never meant to be a high income career. It is unreasonable to expect teachers to have expensive western university degrees but still pay them a mediocre wage. Saudi Arabia and UAE are the only countries which seem to pay good wages but naturally they demand more than a bachelors. I wonder if there are cheap universities abroad which are still viewed as valuable in an employers eyes....
| Kofola wrote: |
It sounds as if you are particularly keen on Russia. My own experience of Russia is that students expect their teachers to be well-qualified. That means being university educated and having the relevant teaching qualifications. I have experienced students being disconcerted to discover that teachers may only have a CELTA cert and an unrelated degree instead of a teaching degree.
Getting a degree may be becoming more difficult in the West but that is unlikely to be of interest to the student. What the student wants is a well-qualified teacher. There are plenty of highly qualified local teachers and I'd say around half the native speaker teachers I came across spoke Russian and/or other Slav languages. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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No argument regarding the ridiculous cost of a degree in the US or Australia! Just that it's a market reality that most students in CEE have degrees as do most EFL teachers, and there are expectations tied to that.
As Kofola notes, most teachers in a region who've been there for more than one year do have at least basic local language skills, so it's not a huge help on a CV, though it IS a help.
And you are correct that higher education is affordable in the CEE region, which is why it's considered standard, but students are unlikely to consider the difference and cut a foreign teacher some slack on academic qualifications.
To change tacks here, if I were you, I'd give it a try in Russia as you are. I can say this because so far as I am aware, a degree is not a legal requirement, but you should check this. You'll soon see to what degree your lack of a BA affects your employment and income prospects. It may be do-able for you, or you may find that it's difficult. There is always an element of luck, positive or negative, in these things.
Last edited by spiral78 on Thu May 22, 2014 2:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| lucifer911 wrote: |
| The fact I am learning the russian language and willing to pay for the most expensive TEFL course (CELTA) should be seen as a desirable quality. Secondly, if I can achieve intermediate fluency in russian theoretically I should be ahead of someone with a degree but has no knowledge of russian or any other second language. I have noticed quite a few teachers work in russia with a degree but barely know more than 2 words in russian. A teacher who has intermediate fluency in a second language will be a better teacher than someone with a non relevant degree and no knowledge of a second language. Please explain how a teacher who is monolingual makes a more effective teacher than someone who undertakes extensive lessons to become fluent in a second language? |
That's not a valid argument since most of us who have taught in the US, Canada, Oz, UK... have had multilingual classrooms. For example, I once taught an ESL class in the US in which there were 10 different languages among the 13 different nationalities. Did I need to know Hmong, Farsi, Russian, Somali, Spanish, etc., in order to successfully teach English to all those students? Certainly not. It was an English-only classroom which is what the majority of employers around the world expect from native English-speaking teachers; otherwise, they'd only hire their own citizens to teach. In fact, I suggest you look at a dozen of TEFL job ads from various countries and see how many require any level of proficiency in a second language.
| and wrote: |
| I get the impression here that only people with degrees are successful and make good teachers. Again I go back to Bill Gates who has no degree in software engineering or computer science but still managed to build the most successful software company the world will ever see. The TEFL qualification gives me the tools and guidelines to become an effective teacher and I am already a native english speaker. |
By the way, a CELTA is desirable, but keep in mind that it's an entry-level teaching qualification designed to get one's foot in the door.
Anyway... Again, your Bill Gates/TEFL analogy doesn't hold water---apples-n-oranges. Seriously, your frustration is keeping you from seeing the reality. In other words, you can argue your position against needing a degree till you're blue in the face, but it really doesn't matter what you or I nor the rest of the posters on this forum think. The reality is that employers have the right to require teachers hold at least a BA or whatever academic credential they feel is necessary. Similarly, a degree is required per visa regulations for expats looking to work and reside in certain countries around the world. It is what it is regardless of how you feel about it.
A suggestion: Keep working in your current job and finish your degree course-by-course as you have the money saved. It will take you longer to complete your BA, but you won't incur any additional debt.
Last edited by nomad soul on Thu May 22, 2014 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lucifer911
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for your empathy..
I am looking at an overseas online degree in Asia. Not sure if this is a no go territory but they are much cheaper than every australian university. Of course I will have to find a university which teaches their curriculum in english. I have the equivalent of 2 years of university study. Maybe if I look at the top 100 universities in the world and find the cheapest university which teaches in english and offers study online...?
| spiral78 wrote: |
No argument regarding the ridiculous cost of a degree in the US or Australia! Just that it's a market reality that most students in CEE have degrees as do most EFL teachers, and there are expectations tied to that.
As Kofola notes, most teachers in a region who've been there for more than one year do have at least basic local language skills, so it's not a huge help on a CV, though it IS a help.
And you are correct that higher education is affordable in the CEE region, which is why it's considered standard, but students are unlikely to consider the difference and cut a foreign teacher some slack on academic qualifications.
To change tacks here, if I were you, I'd give it a try in Russia as you are. You'll soon see to what degree your lack of a BA affects your employment and income prospects. It may be do-able for you, or you may find that it's difficult. There is always an element of luck, positive or negative, in these things. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem with online qualifications is that they're just not accepted in the most lucrative tefl job markets. I know it's a pain but can't advise strongly enough how good an investment a degree is for the future. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| lucifer911 wrote: |
| I am sort of annoyed at the responses here so I'll loosely respond to noone in particular as to why I object to finishing my university degree. I live in Australia and I can tell you the situation here is not good for students studying for a degree. Our government has turned our universities into money making empires which favour international students who pay 2-3x more money in fees upfront courtesy of wealthy parents (usually indian, malaysian and chinese). |
Your objections make sense; however, potential employers and immigration officials won't care.
| Quote: |
| I already have a 15k university debt and I would have to increase it by another 10k to finish a 4 year bachelors degree. |
I'd say that, over your working career, you'll get a good return on that 10k investment to finish your bachelors.
| Quote: |
| Most ESL jobs specify a degree as a *desired* requirement but they do not specify whether the degree has to be teaching or in linguistics. |
Often, the degree can be in anything. Beyond showing knowledge in a specific area, many employers take having a degree as evidence that you are capable of learning new skills, and able to work hard to finish something. That's not to say that there aren't other ways to show these traits; however, possession of an undergraduate degree is the most common way that employers use.
| Quote: |
| I am also annoyed at the fact an ESL teacher with a degree still earns a mediocre wage. |
It's a matter of supply and demand. Wages are low because there are many "teachers" who have unrelated undergrad degrees who are willing to work for those low wages. Plus, it's important to consider that, e.g., $1000 in one country goes a lot farther than $1000 in another country.
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| Please explain how a teacher who is monolingual makes a more effective teacher than someone who undertakes extensive lessons to become fluent in a second language? |
Some employers prefer teachers who do not know the students' L1 because that forces the students to use the L2. Personally, I don't think that that necessarily makes such a person a more effective teacher; however, that employer preference is the reality in some places.
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| I get the impression here that only people with degrees are successful and make good teachers. |
Looking at the previous comments, the impression I get is that people with degrees are preferred by employers and students. That is, I don't think people here are saying you can't be a good teacher without a degree -- people are saying that it is much, much more difficult to get a job offer without a degree because that is what governments, employers, and students many places in the world expect of teachers.
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| I am not against the idea of university education but I despise what western universities have turned into. (money making empires who care about profits rather than educating people and getting them into jobs). |
You can think that all you want (and many of us agree with you), but that doesn't change what employers expect, and they are the ones offering the jobs. To an extent, you need to know how to play the game.
Also, a tip: you're getting a lot of replies here from people who know nothing about the Russian context (including me). You might have more luck if you post on the relevant country-specific board below, where people who better know that context can give you more focused advice about your outlook there. |
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jtea
Joined: 22 Apr 2014
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| lucifer911 wrote: |
| I am sort of annoyed at the responses here so I'll loosely respond to noone in particular as to why I object to finishing my university degree. I live in Australia and I can tell you the situation here is not good for students studying for a degree. Our government has turned our universities into money making empires which favour international students who pay 2-3x more money in fees upfront courtesy of wealthy parents (usually indian, malaysian and chinese). Universities are MEANT to be academic institutes which help citizens become more productive and resourceful in the economy. Instead our universities have created students with huge debts that they cannot repay. Google Tony Abbott, our prime minister, who chose to skip a university appearance due to threats of violence from students due to yet another increase in university fees. Maybe you guys live in a different country where university is more affordable for less wealthy people or maybe you were fortunate enough to have parents pay for your university degree. I have been working nonstop ever since I have enrolled in university and I am not close in paying my debt off. Money doesn't grow on trees here and we have enough indian students taking up our jobs which is making it harder for domestic students to be debt free let alone getting a job after graduation. |
It's not really that much different anywhere else. If it's really that impossible for people in Australia to get a degree, I would imagine the country would be filled with people without degrees. You're right, some people are much more fortunate in terms of finances but I'm sure there are even more people in the same boat as you. How are they going about getting a degree? You should probably figure that part out..whether it's going into massive debt, getting a scholarship, working 8 jobs at the same time, etc. Whether Australia has much higher tuition than places like the UK or the US, I have no idea but to blame it on the Indians as to why you have no job, that's a really low blow. At this point, you're just making excuses. What it comes down to is you don't want it as badly as others do.
| lucifer911 wrote: |
| I already have a 15k university debt and I would have to increase it by another 10k to finish a 4 year bachelors degree. Most ESL jobs specify a degree as a *desired* requirement but they do not specify whether the degree has to be teaching or in linguistics. I am also annoyed at the fact an ESL teacher with a degree still earns a mediocre wage. The extra burden I am putting on myself to finish a degree just doesn't seem worth it unless I choose a middle eastern country (UAE, Saudi Arabia etc) |
In terms of debt when it comes to school...$25k really isn't that bad considering you have people willing to go into the 6 figures when it comes to a degree, but that's how badly they want it. I completely agree that teachers are way underpaid. With my degree and the money that was spent in getting my TESL certification, I'm getting paid a very very basic wage. You would think something as important as teaching the most used language in the world would net you a better pay, but it's no longer the case. What can anyone really do about it? Depending on where you go and your way of living, you can most likely repay a $25k debt in 2-3 years. If teaching overseas is really what you want to do, it's not a bad investment. I don't know how much Russia pays or the cost of living there but that's something you can easily figure out on your own.
| lucifer911 wrote: |
| The fact I am learning the russian language and willing to pay for the most expensive TEFL course (CELTA) should be seen as a desirable quality. Secondly, if I can achieve intermediate fluency in russian theoretically I should be ahead of someone with a degree but has no knowledge of russian or any other second language. I have noticed quite a few teachers work in russia with a degree but barely know more than 2 words in russian. A teacher who has intermediate fluency in a second language will be a better teacher than someone with a non relevant degree and no knowledge of a second language. Please explain how a teacher who is monolingual makes a more effective teacher than someone who undertakes extensive lessons to become fluent in a second language? |
That's true and no one is saying it won't work for you. Just keep in mind that some schools prefer their teachers not to be fluent in the language. When students know you understand Russian, they'll want to speak to you in Russian instead of using English. Does this happen too much? Not really and more schools probably desire someone who speaks the language. If that's the angle you want to shoot for, go for it but it still doesn't change the fact that you're wanting to avoid visa requirements.
| lucifer911 wrote: |
| I get the impression here that only people with degrees are successful and make good teachers. Again I go back to Bill Gates who has no degree in software engineering or computer science but still managed to build the most successful software company the world will ever see. The TEFL qualification gives me the tools and guidelines to become an effective teacher and I am already a native english speaker. |
You get that impression because you're reading what you want to read and not what people are trying to tell you. Again, you're comparing yourself to people like Bill Gates. All the power to you for having high ambitions but people like Bill Gates didn't quit school so they could look for jobs. They quit because they wanted to focus on their ideas. He doesn't need qualifications to work for himself. You can only compare yourself to those people if you were opening your own school. While I agree that a good TEFL course does prepare you well for teaching, you have people out there who have taught for the past 10 years or whatever. Whatever you learned in TEFL doesn't compare to what they know.
I didn't feel like addressing the rest.
Do you need a degree? No. But if you want to avoid visa requirements, you better have skills very few people have or you have tons of teaching experience.
Is anyone telling you that you should get a degree? Not really, but I'm sure everyone here can tell you how much easier it'll make your life. It's called an investment for a reason. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Get a degree. No debate. Leave that for your uni classes in Rhetoric and Belles Lettres ! |
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lucifer911
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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based on a poor return of investment given the cost of *overpriced* Australian universities I will look for an online degree overseas which satisfies the minimum VISA requirements in eastern european countries.
I realise an online degree will unlikely land me into a middle eastern TEFL market but honestly the middle east does not appeal to me.
| scot47 wrote: |
| Get a degree. No debate. Leave that for your uni classes in Rhetoric and Belles Lettres ! |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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And as a parting shot in this thread.... $25k may seem like a lot when you are earning starvation wages in an entry level EFL job.
Not all EFL positions are like that.
Most positions in Korea will allow you to pay that debt off in 2 years and still enjoy your weekends out with your friends. ($24k/year + full benefits package are available at the entry level for teachers with a degree)
Crap jobs for unqualified teachers in China pay crap ($500 is pretty common).
Decent jobs ARE paying in the $1600+/month range PLUS benefits like airfare, housing, utilities, food, etc. You can send 60% of your salary home as an offshore remittance. (again, you can pay off that 25k debt in about 2 years and still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle).
In Thailand, entry level jobs pay about $1200/month (a living wage but you won't save much.) If you get above that entry level there ARE decent remuneration packages to be found.
My current salary is in the $40k/anum range with another $25k in bonuses (this year) PLUS a decent benefits package that includes: medical insurance (bupa) family housing, airfare allowances, generous vacation benefits, car/driver, etc. $65k goes a LONG way in Thailand.
In Taiwan you can easily earn in excess of $2000 and save 1/2 or more.
Qualified teachers earn 30% above that with a full benefits package.
Better language schools in Vietnam pay $2000 + benefits. ($2k goes a LONG way in Vietnam).
EFL will still be there next year and the year after that and the year after that. Globally, in spite of the current economic state, it has been a growth industry.
Go back and finish your degree. It opens a LOT more doors to legal jobs (it is nice to have a proper visa and permits and not worry about the next immigration crackdown) and even in EFL it doesn't take that long to pay off.
It'll have an even greater return when you return back to Oz (unless being a sheep shearer (or other blue collar worker) is your ultimate goal).
If that is the case then trades training might serve you better. It won't get you a visa as a teacher but the world always needs plumbers, construction workers, HVAC workers, butchers, etc. (and the trades usually pay pretty well too - AND often a certified tradesman has the ability to travel as much as an EFL teacher).
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lucifer911
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I am looking at going back to university to finish my degree. I am just stressed about going deeper in debt without the possibility of repaying the debt. Perhaps I will try to repay as much debt as possible by aiming for an asian country (except China) then move to Russia. Cost of living in Moscow may make a hard for me to generate any form of savings so it is best that I opt for an asian country if I wish to repay my debt.
In Australia we have open university programs which cater towards students who wish to study externally from accredited universities. I do not expect to be ultra competitive in the TEFL market with these online degrees but I do expect them to satisfy the VISA requirements because these degrees still cost about $20k in tuition fees to complete.
| suphanburi wrote: |
And as a parting shot in this thread.... $25k may seem like a lot when you are earning starvation wages in an entry level EFL job.
Not all EFL positions are like that.
Most positions in Korea will allow you to pay that debt off in 2 years and still enjoy your weekends out with your friends. ($24k/year + full benefits package are available at the entry level for teachers with a degree)
Crap jobs for unqualified teachers in China pay crap ($500 is pretty common).
Decent jobs ARE paying in the $1600+/month range PLUS benefits like airfare, housing, utilities, food, etc. You can send 60% of your salary home as an offshore remittance. (again, you can pay off that 25k debt in about 2 years and still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle).
In Thailand, entry level jobs pay about $1200/month (a living wage but you won't save much.) If you get above that entry level there ARE decent remuneration packages to be found.
My current salary is in the $40k/anum range with another $25k in bonuses (this year) PLUS a decent benefits package that includes: medical insurance (bupa) family housing, airfare allowances, generous vacation benefits, car/driver, etc. $65k goes a LONG way in Thailand.
In Taiwan you can easily earn in excess of $2000 and save 1/2 or more.
Qualified teachers earn 30% above that with a full benefits package.
Better language schools in Vietnam pay $2000 + benefits. ($2k goes a LONG way in Vietnam).
EFL will still be there next year and the year after that and the year after that. Globally, in spite of the current economic state, it has been a growth industry.
Go back and finish your degree. It opens a LOT more doors to legal jobs (it is nice to have a proper visa and permits and not worry about the next immigration crackdown) and even in EFL it doesn't take that long to pay off.
It'll have an even greater return when you return back to Oz (unless being a sheep shearer (or other blue collar worker) is your ultimate goal).
If that is the case then trades training might serve you better. It won't get you a visa as a teacher but the world always needs plumbers, construction workers, HVAC workers, butchers, etc. (and the trades usually pay pretty well too - AND often a certified tradesman has the ability to travel as much as an EFL teacher).
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