Job Discussion Forums

[mark_in_saigon]

It is an interesting topic we have not worked over enough. Someone needs to do a study on it, but very hard to be certain. My thumbnail ideas:

Very low level jobs - 20%. Not requiring native speaker of English, some or a lot of fudging on qualifications. Lower skill required. Often for young children, No Nose McGurk language centers. Pay probably less than $15, all the way down to a system of indentured servitude for folks from countries you would never dream of as supplying English teachers.

Low level jobs - 50%. Prefer not to name names, but this would include a lot of these primary school jobs. 15 bucks an hour, maybe a few of the old timers getting a bit more, get in and get out. However, the grind of going from place to place makes it tough, plus not really enough hours considering all the hopping between schools.

My ideas on the upper levels are even shakier, as hard to say what an upper level job truly is. A lot of schools give lip service to their quality and you may think they are a better school, and they may be better in one place and not as good in another. So looking at the math, my guess is this is maybe 30% of the pie, and one should further slice it as truly first rate, mostly good, better than most, and however else you want to place them. I remember one school that charged a lot, looked great, and I had always had the plan to go by and see if maybe they would be an upgrade for me when shazaam, they were shut down by the govt and the guys skipped town with the money, leaving the students totally screwed, as well as everyone else. Working in these places, we often get this queasy feeling. Pay no attention to the man behind the screen, you know? Anyway, I am guessing that of these so called better places, maybe half of them are really a positive experience for the teacher long term, though the students may be happy enough and do well enough (compared to everything else that is available to them).

On pay, certainly these jobs should be over 20 bucks, but the numbers the OP mention seem pretty unrealistic for any new guy coming over to expect. I am sure some have gotten that, but my guess is a lot more have been disappointed if that was the expectation.

Where it really gets interesting then is comparing the demand for teachers with the supply. One could do quite a study on this, and it is changing all the time. And who or what is a teacher, ya know? Go down to the backpacker area, see the hordes, are they teachers? God only knows how many of them try, or work, or come and go. Same with the nominal speakers of English, lots of them just look like VN to our foreign eyes, or east European tourists, very hard to get a fix on their numbers. Still, seems to me that there is no shortage of people for the lowest level jobs, and maybe an oversupply of those who are trying to also work in the next level up (low, not lowest). Those employers hope to get workers from the next level up in skill, with some success.

Guys who are serious about this work and well qualified are not a huge number, but is the number bigger or smaller than the need? Being on the inside, one can work with these guys, see they are capable, but also see lots of them are not that serious. So, the ones who are the most desirable are really a small number. Is the number smaller than the jobs available? Can the hiring managers tell who is serious and who is not? (I think often they cannot).

It is my opinion that someone who is really good can spend a lot of time getting chewed up by the system before he reaches the promised land. The OP named the topic "where to start in VN", and I think that is true, no matter how good you are, you have to remember you are starting over here. You may have been Aristotle over in your last country, but they never heard of you here, and you can find a lot of places who would rather have a backpacker than a true professional who is not going to put up with a lot of foolishness.

Anybody want to refine my numbers? Those are just guesses, would love to hear what others think.

[pinot]

I can only go on numbers I have been quoted but there are an unprecedented amount of people trying to get out of the States and the UK whom are qualified, accredited public school teachers. One job I interviewed for had had 12000 applicants - that's right TWELVE thousand applicants, they got it down to 500 who were as above and interviewed 4 (I did not get the job). Another one in Malaysia did not have the same amount but it took nearly a month for them to go through the applicants and finally the job I have in Vietnam had a similar time frame as the Malaysia job and I know they had a lot of applicants - in the interview they mentioned they had never had such high level applicants. The point being that for the jobs in the international schools supply far outweighs demand - from a personal point of view a lot of my colleagues (present and ex)have this year made the jump, a combination of the ridiculous demands from the govt, the press colluding with the govt to blame the teachers (even the London riots were blamed on teachers)for everything, a pay freeze for 5 years with the erosion of benefits and mass redundancies. I was working in school management but I have had to go down and start at the bottom rung again as I am new to international teaching, basically what mark is saying.

If that is an indication of what is happening in other industries and to other people whom are working in schools who just want to teach and not be a political pawn then I can guarantee that the supply of ESL teachers will also be far outstripping demand, my partner being an ESL teacher who luckily does not need to rely on the income from her job but she does it because she hates sitting about doing nothing. Somebody mentioned that the ideal is not having to work - she is in the enviable position of being able to pick and choose BUT even then good work is hard to come by.

[EmGee]

Great post, Mark. I guess I was lucky in Ulaanbaatar (UB), Mongolia. Or maybe it's a supply and demand situation in favour of teachers. I got $17 and 36-52 teaching hours at one place - my first job in UB. It was 15 minutes walk from my city centre apartment. Low taxes too. - about $100 per month. After a year I got a raise to $20 per hour. So the net pay ranged from $3000-3700, no benefits. Then I moved to the Russian high school and got $2700 net for 36 classes (24 contact hours) plus holiday pay and a free apartment next to school.

As I explained in another thread, the pay and benefits in UB can be very good but the lifestyle is really poor. Everything is expensive except alcohol. I'd consider it a hardship posting. So I've had enough of Mongolia. I'll try Vietnam and see if I can build up to a decent job. I'm a serious career teacher, I think and I have decent savings so I can take my time. I'll probably have to settle for less pay and compensate with a lower cost of living. I'll be there in HCMC tomorrow for a 3-4 week exploratory trip.

[pinot]

If you do have friends in high places you might get lucky!!! it usually is who you know, oh and good luck

[pinot]

I have been thinking about your experience and questions - my advice would be to stay there for another year - while you are there get qualified with an international PGCE then you will be ripe for the international jobs and the big bucks. A shame to have your credentials, experiences and your desire to be a serious career in teaching and not get it formalised

[mark_in_saigon]

I think he arrives tomorrow, should be on the plane about now. Well, always exciting seeing something new.

I think this is a great place to live for some folks, but I try not to recommend it for people who need the income. The whole system is built on rewarding for reasons OTHER THAN competence. Not that ALL the schools operate that way, but hard to avoid the overall nature of the system. I find that all these questions about jobs from folks who have various qualifications are usually off target. Yeah, you may get work, lots of it is barely worth having. You may find people get jobs while you do not because of age, appearance, gender or naivete, maybe some others I have left out as well. If you do have money and work is just a diversion for you, and perhaps hopeful padding of your ability to spend even more money on pursuit of happiness, then you are golden. Lots of things are cheap here, especially transportation, food, communications, housing (if you shop around) and relationships (once you figure it out). Does take some time to get yourself up to speed on all this, and it is my observation that some folks from other close countries actually end up with their previous experience hurting their ability to cope over here.

Anyway, that's my take on it. OP sounds like he may be a serious teacher, but the income figures he states are not often found.

[skarper]

That about sums it up MIS.

He would be better off somewhere else IMO - because Vietnam cannot guarantee those levels of income year in year out from the outset.

Even folks who find their niche and milk it for a while can lose it all on th