|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:01 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Awesome info, James. Yet the time length does make a difference, according to the visa laws posted.
-- Just re-read your post, James. You answered it all. Thanks. There is zero chance of anyone getting in trouble at the top schools or any place that has the blessing of China's elite. Yet if you were to do something that seriously displeases the power system, all bets are off. Doing your job by invitation is not one of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| James is definitely right. If you are being paid outside of China you can legally work on a business visa (under the conditions of the visa). That is the point of it. Tourist visa will never allow you to work legally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Riff Raff wrote: |
No, doogsville, I'm not looking for loopholes. I'm looking for clear cut legal options...
My question was clear. What are the legal possibilities other than Z. I'd take great offense to your words if I could muster an iota of caring. Rather than exploring the fact that the law is commonly broken by powers that be, my interest is knowing the legal options. Legally, YES you can work on visas other than Z. The F has been covered here. The internship visa has not. Your notion that it is Z or nothing is simply untrue and misleading. Your caution about breaking the law is spot on. |
Yes, you can work legally on visas other than the Z, but not as a teacher of English as a second or foreign language. For that you have to satisfy the requirements of the FEC. Of course, if you are lucky enough to be an expert in a field other than the English language, and in which China cannot find enough Chinese citizens who are also experts to fill vacant positions, then you might also qualify for an FEC. This board however, is aimed squarely at English teachers, not business people or anyone else. Some of us teach other subjects in English, and also English itself, and so qualify as Foreign experts. Visiting lecturers are highly unlikely to be lecturing in or teaching EFL, but in other highly specialised subjects. I'm sure most if not all of them do it using English, but that does not qualify them as English teachers. Also, as has already been pointed out those who qualify for F visas do so because they are contracted by companies and organisations outside of China.
I'm sorry if I seem unduly pedantic about this, but I still think that you are looking for loopholes. That is not a criticism, simply an observation. I have no idea why you're posing the question, I'm just trying to answer it as best I can from my own knowledge and experience. The reason I'm answering at all, is because it worries me that less experienced and more naive visitors to this forum may misinterpret the information here as 'come to China on something other than a Z visa to teach English, it's okay'. It's not. This is an ESL forum for people looking for employment as English teachers in China.
Anyone coming to China to teach English as a foreign language needs to have a valid Z visa in their passport on arrival. They also need to supply the necessary documents to allow their government licensed employer to provide them with an FEC and a resident permit. There are no loopholes and no get out of jail free cards. Anyone who does not follow this procedure is placing themselves in a potentially dangerous position. They risk being fined, jailed and deported, probably in that order. I think we need to make that very clear to anyone who is reading this forum. Doing anything else, in my opinion, is irresponsible and morally questionable. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Piper2
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 146
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| doogsville wrote: |
| Riff Raff wrote: |
No, doogsville, I'm not looking for loopholes. I'm looking for clear cut legal options...
My question was clear. What are the legal possibilities other than Z. I'd take great offense to your words if I could muster an iota of caring. Rather than exploring the fact that the law is commonly broken by powers that be, my interest is knowing the legal options. Legally, YES you can work on visas other than Z. The F has been covered here. The internship visa has not. Your notion that it is Z or nothing is simply untrue and misleading. Your caution about breaking the law is spot on. |
Yes, you can work legally on visas other than the Z, but not as a teacher of English as a second or foreign language. For that you have to satisfy the requirements of the FEC. Of course, if you are lucky enough to be an expert in a field other than the English language, and in which China cannot find enough Chinese citizens who are also experts to fill vacant positions, then you might also qualify for an FEC. This board however, is aimed squarely at English teachers, not business people or anyone else. Some of us teach other subjects in English, and also English itself, and so qualify as Foreign experts. Visiting lecturers are highly unlikely to be lecturing in or teaching EFL, but in other highly specialised subjects. I'm sure most if not all of them do it using English, but that does not qualify them as English teachers. Also, as has already been pointed out those who qualify for F visas do so because they are contracted by companies and organisations outside of China.
I'm sorry if I seem unduly pedantic about this, but I still think that you are looking for loopholes. That is not a criticism, simply an observation. I have no idea why you're posing the question, I'm just trying to answer it as best I can from my own knowledge and experience. The reason I'm answering at all, is because it worries me that less experienced and more naive visitors to this forum may misinterpret the information here as 'come to China on something other than a Z visa to teach English, it's okay'. It's not. This is an ESL forum for people looking for employment as English teachers in China.
Anyone coming to China to teach English as a foreign language needs to have a valid Z visa in their passport on arrival. They also need to supply the necessary documents to allow their government licensed employer to provide them with an FEC and a resident permit. There are no loopholes and no get out of jail free cards. Anyone who does not follow this procedure is placing themselves in a potentially dangerous position. They risk being fined, jailed and deported, probably in that order. I think we need to make that very clear to anyone who is reading this forum. Doing anything else, in my opinion, is irresponsible and morally questionable. |
doogsville expresses my sentiments exactly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aaaaaaaand............. we're done. Amen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omniscientfool
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 27
Location: Zhangye, Gansu
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: Not encouraging lawlessness, reminding on a bigger picture. |
|
|
| As it's the season for summer camps, I'd just like to chime in and say that it'd be nice if there were more channels here in the PRC for ft's to express discontent with the strictures of legal employment. The difficulties in obtaining a Z seem to serve us legally employed ft's as a deterrent to less able TEFL applicants (i.e. less time/money/credentials to get a Z) who would otherwise flood the market. Are China's millions of curious young minds served by the maintenance of a severe EFL teacher shortage? Certainly not. With so much misunderstanding between China and the rest of the world (not just “The West”), I'd argue that the prospects for peace in the 21st century aren't served either. A good EFL teacher in the PRC doesn't just improve students' English; s/he serves as a cultural ambassador to soften the stark and often unduly harsh zhongguo/waiguo distinction. Having worked camps on an F and an L under assurance from employers that this was legal in the short-term (albeit in 2007 and 2011) and been initially invited to my current, fully legal position to teach on an F, I really think the greater harm here is enforcing the letter of the law. There will always be folks desperate enough for a salary to skip the red tape and areas of China with a combination of guanxi and need to indulge them. In official, political rhetoric of IR and IPE, I believe the term is “win-win”. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JamesD wrote: |
| Aaaaaaaand............. we're done. Amen. |
Seconded.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Legal working options without a Z |
|
|
| Piper2 wrote: |
However, TIC... As is known to all, in our China a coin always has two sides if you or the people you will work for know the right people in the right way. However, that does not mean that all because you somehow get that job and become everyone's new best foreign friend and are invited every other day to eat delicious food that nothing bad will happen. Because, as is known to all, in our China a coin always has two sides. The flip side of you getting a job illegally is that YOU -and rarely your employer- run the distinct risk of discovering how colourful life can be in China and how easily your new found besties disown you.
|
Hear! Hear! Sticky! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Piper2
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 146
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bud Powell wrote: |
| Piper2 wrote: |
However, TIC... As is known to all, in our China a coin always has two sides if you or the people you will work for know the right people in the right way. However, that does not mean that all because you somehow get that job and become everyone's new best foreign friend and are invited every other day to eat delicious food that nothing bad will happen. Because, as is known to all, in our China a coin always has two sides. The flip side of you getting a job illegally is that YOU -and rarely your employer- run the distinct risk of discovering how colourful life can be in China and how easily your new found besties disown you.
|
Hear! Hear! Sticky! |
Well that is generous of you Bud. However, though fairly concise, the playful wording in my paragraph is not clear enough (or at all) to be very helpful to teachers who have never taught in China.
On a related note, I do wish the following had been left as the last post on this thread: it was the perfect ending
| JamesD wrote: |
| Aaaaaaaand............. we're done. Amen. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
