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Talking shop -- University-level
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maxand



Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alien abductee wrote:
Non Sequitur wrote:
FTs can console themselves by continuing to do their best for the 99.9999999999999999999999999% who don't meet that standard.
Smile

True, to some degree, but let's not overstate our importance in the equation. And face it, a large percentage of students in China do not want or need English. Of those that do, many or even most of them are going to succeed with or without the native speaking teacher.


Alien Abductee, if teaching english in china loses its luster, you should consider a career as a motivational speaker or career counselling. Laughing

this is the correct attitude!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWNXgK5kJE4
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Alien abductee



Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, or i could just sit back and watch lame youtube videos 24/7.
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3701 W.119th



Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 386
Location: Central China

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maxand wrote:


this is the correct attitude!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWNXgK5kJE4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAV0sxwx9rY
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't agree.
My English and Hotel Management majors have either become teachers or now work for foreign-owned companies which maintain English as the official language of communication.
This includes companies headquartered in non-Anglophone Europe.
One E-major from 2004, starts work soon with a major European consulate having worked through high school English teaching and a multinational.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
Problem is: 'How do you administer an oral exam to the millions of kids who sit the GaoKao?'
It's got to be done one-to-one as speaking is an individual (not a group) skill.
We look askance at rote learning it does have its place when you have a huge population aspiring to a basic level of education. Just don't expect the individuality you need for a conversation.
On this one my sympathies are with the Chinese.


Just to clarify about Gao Kao.
Last night I skyped a former student and her recollection of the English component of the GK was:
English language dictation in a language lab. A recorded native speaker dictated and students transcribed.
A multiple-choice exercise where an English text had words missing and students given 5 choices of the correct word to insert,
A summarising (precis) exercise where an English text had to be cut down to 100-120 words.
There was no spoken English required.
This tends to support the English ability levels we see in the tertiary sector.
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shoeshine



Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:40 pm    Post subject: Helpful book published in China by foreign author Reply with quote

You could use my book, which was written with colleagues for oral English in mind. You can put in as much or as little as you wish. Just work through it, and it's an affordable price.

Eight plays in contemporary English about a Chinese student and his English girlfriend - sort of a soap. My colleague at the International College swears by it and has been using it for all his classes.

'It Ain't Shakespeare' by Sandra Adams with occasional translation by Yuhua Ji from Xiamen University Press. You can see it in bookshops with a green and white cover and picture of The Globe Theatre on the cover.

There are exercises and questions. You can read the plays in groups, discuss them, discuss cultural issues/differences, perform them if you wish. The idea is actually for the students to read and discuss the plays then talk them through without the text; they're NOT supposed to learn it by heart, though they will want to. That's all Chinese students are used to doing. You can compare different English speaking cultures, western cultures. Actually there are too many things for me to mention. Just add your own imagination. No work required on your part except read the intro. and each play unless you want to do more.

Students can make their own plays or do any kind of speaking activity following on from the book. Some of the things that come up are truly amazing (if you know Chinese students). I had a group who asked me 'Is it OK if we do a play involving birth control?' Try getting student to address such issues in class under normal conditions.

My colleague had a class which argued about when Chinese people first have sex with a boyfriend/girlfriend, as a result of one of the plays. There is none of that in the plays; don't be alarmed. But if they want to cover it, no problem for me. I let the students pretty well lead where things will go after a first reading and discussion.

My credentials: professional actress, speech trainer, director, PhD English, MA Phonetics and Phonology and 25+ years working abroad.

By the way, I would never accept 60 in a class. You are going to die. If I were a religious person I'd make offerings for you.

Very good luck to you. I've just left China after six years and hope never to return.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Helpful book published in China by foreign author Reply with quote

shoeshine wrote:
You could use my book, which was written with colleagues for oral English in mind. You can put in as much or as little as you wish. Just work through it, and it's an affordable price.

Eight plays in contemporary English about a Chinese student and his English girlfriend - sort of a soap. My colleague at the International College swears by it and has been using it for all his classes.

'It Ain't Shakespeare' by Sandra Adams with occasional translation by Yuhua Ji from Xiamen University Press. You can see it in bookshops with a green and white cover and picture of The Globe Theatre on the cover.

There are exercises and questions. You can read the plays in groups, discuss them, discuss cultural issues/differences, perform them if you wish. The idea is actually for the students to read and discuss the plays then talk them through without the text; they're NOT supposed to learn it by heart, though they will want to. That's all Chinese students are used to doing. You can compare different English speaking cultures, western cultures. Actually there are too many things for me to mention. Just add your own imagination. No work required on your part except read the intro. and each play unless you want to do more.

Students can make their own plays or do any kind of speaking activity following on from the book. Some of the things that come up are truly amazing (if you know Chinese students). I had a group who asked me 'Is it OK if we do a play involving birth control?' Try getting student to address such issues in class under normal conditions.

My colleague had a class which argued about when Chinese people first have sex with a boyfriend/girlfriend, as a result of one of the plays. There is none of that in the plays; don't be alarmed. But if they want to cover it, no problem for me. I let the students pretty well lead where things will go after a first reading and discussion.

My credentials: professional actress, speech trainer, director, PhD English, MA Phonetics and Phonology and 25+ years working abroad.

By the way, I would never accept 60 in a class. You are going to die. If I were a religious person I'd make offerings for you.

Very good luck to you. I've just left China after six years and hope never to return.


To be useful, the dialogues must have at least 5 speeches per character and a max of 3 characters.
Dialogues are a way of subjecting students to a standard task as there is no written English in Oral classes (natch).
Mid semester assessments are student prepared dialogues chosen from a group of loose topics. Again max of 3 students.
I've constantly been amazed by the creativity of my students in these situations. It's almost as if they a bursting out of the 'shut up and listen' of their regular classes.
I use dialogues for assessment so max of 3 students ensures I can get a handle on each student's performance as the piece unfolds.
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Alien abductee



Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen some pretty good dialogues and role plays, the main problem I see is they want to keep going on and on and on. Students need to heed the time restrictions.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point.
I put a max of 5 mins and a min of 3 speeches by each participant.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My former student has now sent me some GaoKao English test papers.
Anyone interested in seeing them - PM me.
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Helpful book published in China by foreign author Reply with quote

shoeshine wrote:
You could use my book, which was written with colleagues for oral English in mind. You can put in as much or as little as you wish. Just work through it, and it's an affordable price.


Excuse my cynicism: one post to the above poster's name and that one post is simply to hawk her book and list her credentials.

In the words of Bogie in Casablanca, sure, you can use the book: "for a price, Ugarte, for a price".

Cool

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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Shroob



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
Non Sequitur wrote:
Problem is: 'How do you administer an oral exam to the millions of kids who sit the GaoKao?'
It's got to be done one-to-one as speaking is an individual (not a group) skill.
We look askance at rote learning it does have its place when you have a huge population aspiring to a basic level of education. Just don't expect the individuality you need for a conversation.
On this one my sympathies are with the Chinese.


Just to clarify about Gao Kao.
Last night I skyped a former student and her recollection of the English component of the GK was:
English language dictation in a language lab. A recorded native speaker dictated and students transcribed.
A multiple-choice exercise where an English text had words missing and students given 5 choices of the correct word to insert,
A summarising (precis) exercise where an English text had to be cut down to 100-120 words.
There was no spoken English required.
This tends to support the English ability levels we see in the tertiary sector.


It's well known the gaokao doesn't have a speaking component. And, I believe, is at the root of the problem in China. The trouble is with a population so large how practical would it be to test the speaking ability of students? Ideas such as optional speaking test (much like the CET), staggered tests, group tests, or computerized tests (like TOEFL) all have their positives and negatives. But again, the feasibility of such an enormous task is beyond belief. In order to get valid and reliable scores the cost would be enormous.

Negative washback is a huge hindrance to the advance from the Grammar Translation teaching methodology that is prevalent in the Chinese educational system. When tests reward knowledge of vocabulary and grammar, it's no wonder teachers don't concentrate on actual communication.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You don't like me very much, do you?"
-- Ugarte (Peter Lorre), Casablanca, 1942

I'm unsure what turn the thread is taking... most native teachers defer to FTs for our ability to model the target language and discriminate its production. The complaint made by students and their parents is that native teachers (despite any degree) speak with accents too extreme to provide teachable examples. Authenticity is the jargon and its our currency.

I know posters to the thread know this, so forgive my stating the obvious. As a matter of policy, China (in this case) has afforded FTs because no other solution is of any example. The focus on translation and grammar is in lieu of English speakers among a faculty and the dissension to be engendered were native teachers to evaluate another about whose productive skills were sufficient.

Please forgive, again, for stating the obvious.

What's intereresting, to me, is that, as foreign experts, we're given a wide berth to exercise a range of methodology and technique (or its application in the case of language schools), but I suspect, outside personality, we're a "stock" item. And yet, put three of us together and request a definition of "fluency" and listen to the nuances.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Helpful book published in China by foreign author Reply with quote

fat_chris wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
You could use my book, which was written with colleagues for oral English in mind. You can put in as much or as little as you wish. Just work through it, and it's an affordable price.


Excuse my cynicism: one post to the above poster's name and that one post is simply to hawk her book and list her credentials.

In the words of Bogie in Casablanca, sure, you can use the book: "for a price, Ugarte, for a price".

Cool

Warm regards,
fat_chris


One post contributed.
One ad for book.
Well spotted F_C
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackflash wrote:
Bud Powell wrote:
Forget games. If they're English majors, they'll need something engaging and challenging.

It'll be difficult to work with 60 students, but you can create situational dialog scenarios for 2-4 students in which they must solve some sort of common problem. Humorous situations work best.

You can cover a LOT of ground if they are given little to no time to prepare by having the 3-4 best speakers appear before the class and engage in the dialog.

One of my favorites is this scenario: mother and father stand before their daughter and her boyfriend. The boyfriend is described as being heavily tattooed with long hair. He's also a rock and roll musician. The daughter asks the parents to marry the guy. Each presents his reasons for/against the marriage. You can quickly rotate students out of roles as they run out of things to say.

Unless the "game" is challenging, you'll lose them fast.


This is a great idea. I'm always a bit worried when introducing a game to older learners. I don't want to patronize them in any way. Role playing and dialogue exercises may be a better bet. Have you found any method the best when introducing and conducting classroom discussions/debates?

I assume I have a typical university job - Oral English, 12 classes per week. My contact has been mum on specifics. Still waiting on my invitation letter, at the moment. Any more resources or guides on how I might approach lesson-planning or classroom activities would be greatly appreciated.


I agree that E Majors need something to expand their understanding of the language in use.
As a marker sophomore's will be studying a Shakespeare play so they've made progress.
There is an online collection of foreign phrases used in English spread across about 6 source languages - Mama Dia, Carpe Diem, Honcho etc.
Has literal translation and examples of use in everyday English.
PM me if you want it.
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