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Good evening, Vietnam (and, what are my chances)
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:01 pm    Post subject: Good evening, Vietnam (and, what are my chances) Reply with quote

Hi all. I am writing to you from the sultry environs of Sumatra, specifically the "serene and clean" metropolis of Medan.

I am beginning my fourth year teaching YL's in the elementary department of a private K-12 school here (second year of second two-year contract). Previously I taught Oral English in a public school in Xinjiang, China for one year. That is the extent of my teaching experience. Oh, I also taught in a two week "intensive English" winter camp in Turkey in 2011.

I have a "tentative" but strongly inclined intention of leaving Indonesia for awhile after completing my contract in June of 2015. My current school will pay for my airfare to repatriate me to the U.S.A. at that time. It's possible I might stay "home" for up to six months or so, visiting F'n'F and checking on the condition of an elderly parent, but at least equally likely (depending the condition of the parent at the time) that I will be ready to ship out again by August or so (I get "itchy feet" quickly when I go "home".)

Since I would like to work and live outside of RI for awhile, I have had the countries I have previously "done" at the top of my list for my next job: China or Turkey. However, I took a two week vacation in June in Cambodia and Vietnam (first time in both countries), and based on first impressions, I have added both to my shortlist of possibilities.

I have four years teaching experience but my only formal teaching qualification is an online TEFL. (Yes, I'm aware that that makes me a pitiful peon to many, most or maybe all of you, mea culpa) I have a B.A. in Criminal Justice / Legal Studies from an American university. I am considering hanging around SEA for a month after completing my contract to take either CELTA or Trinity Dip TESOL (Trinity Dip at IALF in Bali or CELTA in Vietnam, Bangkok, or wherever). Or if I were to decide on Turkey, I could go home first, then go to Istanbul a month early (school there starts in September) and do it in Istanbul.

(I hate to part with the money for the course, since saving money is really important to me at my age (49)... on the other foot, I really do want to improve my actual teaching skills and knowledge, as well as my get-a-better-job-ability. I'm also a wee bit worried that I might have picked up so many "bad habits" in my teaching that I might actually not pass the motherstubber - whether those fears are well-founded or not, I have no idea)

My current package is about 1350 USD after tax, paid in rupiah (it was closer to 1500 USD when I signed my last contract, before the rupiah dropped), accommodation self-paid, yearly bonus, end of contract return airfare to home country if staying, one way airfare if leaving.

I want to maintain an overall similarity to the above**, slight improvement even better, slight drop tolerable, figuring in all factors like COL in country and city, buying power, accommodations provided or not, etc. (Here in Medan, decent accommodation can be rented dirt-cheap: we currently pay 600,000 IDR - about 50 USD - monthly for a one bedroom "pavilion" (cottage apartment next to our landlord's house), which is why accommodation not being provided nor paid by the employer is not a big concern at all - I realize that in most places I'm considering for relocation - including Vietnam - it is probably going to be a few times that, at least).

** Actually, the most important measure for me is not what my paycheck says, but how much of it I have left in the bank at the end of the month. Here, I can save as much as 6 to 700 USD a month, most of the time ... about half of my earnings, plus / minus. I realize that maintaining anything close to that in Vietnam - or anywhere - would be largely dependent on the employer providing accommodation, as well as the dollar amount of salary.

Teaching YL is definitely my "niche", and I have no experience teaching adults nor teaching in a "language school". I am willing to try my hand at both, however I do prefer working in a "real school" (no derogation of language training schools intended by my definition) because I like that atmosphere and sense of community.

But enough about me, as they say. My questions are, if anybody's still awake:

- What kind of jobs might be available for me - language training schools only, or private / public schools also? (I know that "real" international schools are out of the question with my lack of qualifications - the school I'm working for now is basically a "faux' international for local rich kids: it teaches the national curriculum plus an IB style curriculum in English and Mandarin, what has been called here a "National Plus" school; most of the students are Indonesian, but there are a number of expat or half-expat kids)

- without the CELTA or Trinity Dip, am I still employable (read: likely to actually find a job) in Vietnam, or is the additional qualification a "must have"? (By current government regulations in Indonesia, I SHOULD NOT be teaching here, because I don't have a degree in English or Education nor a "real" teaching qualification... nevertheless, I'm on my fourth year teaching here, and completely legally)

- Which kinds of employers / schools offer accommodation or "subsidy / allowance" as part of their package? If none that would be applicable to me (I'm married btw - no kids), what is the range for clean, decent, but modest accommodations for two people? (I know that most schools in China will include acco, many in Turkey will not)

- Same question (which schools or kinds of schools, etc) about reimbursing flights from point of origin (including the US)? (If I take a job in China, my flight should definitely be reimbursed; in Turkey, probably not)

- Can't think of what else at the moment...

The way I figure it, I have a "probable max" of ten more working years left after this contract ends when I will be 50 (jeepers), plus / minus a year or two. I need to save enough money to "retire" on in that time, figuring on perhaps a modest income generated in later years by my Indonesian wife, help from her family if needed, maybe some private tuition, etc, augmenting the nest egg. (I'm counting on very little-to-nothing from "Social Insecurity")

So help me out a little, open my eyes (politely, please) about the Vietnam Experience, on the financial / employment side. If Vietnam might not be a wise or at least workable option for me, given my stated goals, let me know, or vice versa, according to your various sagacity.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gawd, bunch of questions, most of them good questions, but mostly they have been answered very well in the recent past. If you look for discussions on housing being supplied and airfare, you will see those are quite unlikely for most everyone.

Discussions on qualifications will also cover your situation. Any Bachelors is fine, not that yours is great, but there are much worse out there, and your English skills seem quite adequate. My red flag on your question would be how you are nervous about spending the small amount of money for the TESOL/CELTA whatever, it is not big bucks, and for someone who has been doing this for years and wants to continue, it seems you are making more out of it than it should be. Yeah, you may be able to work without it (you said you have an online one, which AMA often accepts), but it does not seem like a big issue to me.

My real reaction is that Aug 2015 is another world away. Who knows what will be happening then? Great to plan, but over here, it is not like that. You see that new posting about no extensions on visas? Is it real? Even if it is not, who knows what the deal will be in one year? No one.

This is a great place for folks who have an income stream, and who can afford to hop over to Cambodia at the drop of a hat if things get stupid. If you have the bucks, this is a great place to hang out and try, and to enjoy as long as it lasts. From the general tenor of your post, I would not really suggest it, and even if I did, I would say, check back in about 10 months or so. You said you are saving about 600 or so over there. Lots of us who make quite a bit more than you do in Indonesia run through all our income pretty easily. I am sure I could save 6 or 7 hundred if I needed to, but then what is the point of living here? Starting out here, (now, not next year), my guess is that financially you will be in a worse position than in Indonesia.

You left the Indonesian wife out of the discussion (other than to say you have one), which also seems to be a much bigger issue than things like airfare, TESOL or company supplied housing. I guess we can drag them all over Asia, but I think that often it creates more problems than it solves. Your mileage may vary.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's an undeniably valid point (the calendar), I know it's a loooooooong way out from here, I'm just interested in starting to collect information based on how things are up to now. If I was twenty, ten or even five years younger (and / or still solo) I wouldn't be asking or even thinking about it now, most likely , just "yeah, besok-besok (later). I guess it's on my mind to get some some input as I'm still fresh back from our few days in country.

Numbeo lists rent for 1BR apt (countrywide average) starting from 3 million dong ("outside city center") or 5 million ("in city center"... of course that is the lowest end of the scale given. According to XE, at today's rate that's about $140 to 240 USD, I could live with that, maybe, but not much more. Do those numbers seem fairly accurate to you (with the high end being 8 to 12 million dong)? Would you say that + / - 200 USD for a 1 BR in Hanoi / Haiphong, HCMC, Danang, or Vung Tau would be feasible? (now, not necessarily a year from now, I grok you)

I was about to ask you who or what AMA is, but I recovered and googled it (good save, mysterytrain). If 15 USD / hour and average 20 class hours a week, that's 1200 USD.

Based on those figures, I'm guessing we could still save maybe 2-300 a month, not as good as 600, but not a total deal-breaker either, for a year or two at least.

I know that purely in terms of saving money, with no other considerations, staying put with my current employer (or another at similar salary range) would be one of my best options. My school will definitely want to keep me and I am in very much in the driver's seat for negotiating a new contract with them in January or February next year, they would definitely give me a significant raise, as they did this last time ... and I might end up caving in and staying, but I basically just want a change of scenery, new "adventure", new environment and challenge ... new climate. It wouldn't kill me to stay, but I still have the itch to leave ... so we'll see.

China would also be a "smarter move", money-wise, as far as countries other than RI, since they will reimburse my flight (probably not my wife's, but we'll see) and provide free acco, plus a salary more or less in line with what I'm making now is certainly quite possible and the COL is low if one is fairly frugal (which we are, for the most part). Probably the usual mental gymnastics, thought puzzles and guessing games that are the norm in the PRC, comes with the territory I suppose.

My wife? "She'll take the bus... she's a rock!" as HDS said in Repo Man.

No, my wife is actually quite important to me, I didn't mean to seem like she was no potential concern, but we have (in theory) sorted this one long ago (married two and a half years now): I told her from the get-go that I don't want to be tied down to Indonesia permanently, married or not, and I still have desire to live and work in other places, she has agreed to go where I go.

Basically she made three requests: she doesn't want to go to a country that has a war going on or extreme level of violent activity / instability (Iraq, Afghanistan, Paklstan, Libya, for example); she doesn't want to be in an "extremely" cold climate (unfortunately what is "extreme" for her is quite mild for me - I'd love to go back to Xinjiang, Mongolia, Russia, wherever); and she wants to be able to go home at least once a year for Eid'l Fitri (end of Ramadan festival), all of which I have promised her to the best of my ability to "make good".

I think I would have to say that one of my wife's biggest worries / fears is "husband abandonment", so actually being dragged around Asia is definitely preferable to her than being left at home. Actually, one of the reasons I am considering Vietnam or Cambodia (Thailand too) is that they are close and within quick, easy and relatively quite cheap reach of Indonesia, that is, if the wife or both of us want or need to go "home" at any time, especially in an urgent or short-notice situation, like serious illness of a parent or other family member, it won't take a long time nor cost an arm or leg to get there, unlike Turkey and, to some extent, China. (Yes, I know that Indonesia itself is "even closer" to Indonesia. Wink )

What did I like (I know, you didn't ask) about Vietnam? Weather was surprisingly pleasant in HCMC (I know it's wet season, and probably cooler than other times of the year, but compared with Medan year-round sauna, it was refreshing. I understand that the North, Hanoi / Haiphong etc, tends to be a good five degrees cooler than the south, this would be attractive to me and not too cold for my wife); the people seemed nice, friendly, open, though didn't speak much English at all (hey good for us, right), at least not in District 12; beer was cheap, delicious and various, smokes cheap as well (yes, I'm a creature of bad habits too), food choices seemed good and cheap enough (comparable with here, probably).

I have a tendency towards long posts and, arguably, over-elaboration ... "xin loi".
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you thought about different areas of Indonesia? I've never been there, but from what I've read, going to another part of Indonesia might as well be like going abroad anyway. But internal flights "home" would be much cheaper.

As for your suggestions, I think without a CELTA, Trinity or something equivalent, you're going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in Vietnam. In fact, a lot of employers simply don't recognise any pre-certificate experience at all, so every time you move countries (and it sounds like you're not likely to stay in one place for another 10 years) you'll be starting at the bottom again. If you're really against doing it, then I'd move to China and Korea, but bear in mind that if you then decide to move elsewhere afterwards, that experience might not be worth a lot.

Incidentally, I've heard that VUS will accept online certificates sometimes. They pay more than AMA/Cleverlearn.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably a typo but don't confuse a CELTA with a Trinity Dip TESOL. The Trinity CERT TESOL is at the same level as a CELTA while the Dip is the same as a DELTA.

On balance I'd stick with Indonesia were I in your shoes. There don't seem to be stable jobs for unqualified middle aged men (like you have there) here in Vietnam.

Even the top of the tree jobs here don't seem so stable and it would take 2-3 years to land one of those - by which time your wife would want to be back home in Indonesia.

Relocation costs are also pretty heavy here - houses etc are totally unfurnished or on the expensive side so you have to buy beds, fridges , cookers, aircon units - the whole shabang - and then reselling it all after a year or so you lose about 50% or the value.

A lot if not most of the jobs go to youngsters who just rent a hotel room or a room in a shared house - not really ideal for a married couple but maybe you could live like that for a while.

Very many older, experienced but untrained teachers really struggle with a CELTA course and quite a few fail or fail to complete the coursework - the workload is extreme for 4 weeks.

I'm not saying you're a bad teacher - 90% of a CELTA is inapplicable when teaching young kids or larger (15+) monolingual classes. Having to learn to do things you know will not be usable in the classes you will actually teach can be a problem for some - but others can jump thru the hoops more readily.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With Stupid wrote:
Have you thought about different areas of Indonesia? I've never been there, but from what I've read, going to another part of Indonesia might as well be like going abroad anyway. But internal flights "home" would be much cheaper.


You're right on the first part (Sumatra, Java, Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Papua are practically five different countries, in terms of cultural and linguistic variation). On the second, you would think so, but it ain't necessarily so. For example, I just ran this through Air Asia's site as a test: a one way ticket from Kuala Lumpur (a stone's throw from Medan) to HCMC on August 12th is going for 31 USD (base price). A ticket from KL to my wife's hometown in Kalimantan on August 15th is going for 62 USD. With LCC's like Air Asia, it is often as cheap or cheaper to buy a ticket to Bangkok, Vietnam or Cambodia as to buy a domestic one cross country. My wife's ticket from Medan to her hometown for Eid'l Fitr this year cost almost 4 million IDR (round trip), that's about 325 USD (travel is always much more expensive during this period).


Quote:
As for your suggestions, I think without a CELTA, Trinity or something equivalent, you're going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in Vietnam. In fact, a lot of employers simply don't recognise any pre-certificate experience at all, so every time you move countries (and it sounds like you're not likely to stay in one place for another 10 years) you'll be starting at the bottom again. If you're really against doing it, then I'd move to China and Korea, but bear in mind that if you then decide to move elsewhere afterwards, that experience might not be worth a lot.


That's a fair statement and a good point, and thanks for reminding me. Probably one of the several good reasons, as Mark said, for biting the bullet and taking a CELTA or T-DIp as soon as possible... either that or resign myself to teaching on what I've got for the duration. It was just "the way things happened" that I got this far with an online TEFL and have done fairly well so far. Of course it would have been better if I had gotten a more "serious" qualification much earlier on in the game (I didn't even finish the online TEFL until after I had already done my year in China).

It's true that my basic plan is to 'mad it around for the next several years, with the understanding that if we find a location and situation (including my employment, of course) that we really like, we may stay put there for as long as we like it or until I'm "timed out". Until then, keep testing the waters here adn there. My wife will inherit a house from her parents, which we plan to live in in our "golden years" (might have to settle for brass), so we do plan to end up in Indonesia, and I don't mind working here again later, that's always an option (pending ever-increasing government requirements). I just want to get out for awhile and stick my feet in some other waters.

Quote:
Incidentally, I've heard that VUS will accept online certificates sometimes. They pay more than AMA/Cleverlearn.


Cheers, I'll check them out online.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skarper wrote:
Probably a typo but don't confuse a CELTA with a Trinity Dip TESOL. The Trinity CERT TESOL is at the same level as a CELTA while the Dip is the same as a DELTA.


Yep, sorry. I meant CELTA or Trinity Cert, not Dip.


Quote:
On balance I'd stick with Indonesia were I in your shoes. There don't seem to be stable jobs for unqualified middle aged men (like you have there) here in Vietnam.

Even the top of the tree jobs here don't seem so stable and it would take 2-3 years to land one of those - by which time your wife would want to be back home in Indonesia.


Noted, thanks.

Quote:
Relocation costs are also pretty heavy here - houses etc are totally unfurnished or on the expensive side so you have to buy beds, fridges , cookers, aircon units - the whole shabang - and then reselling it all after a year or so you lose about 50% or the value.

A lot if not most of the jobs go to youngsters who just rent a hotel room or a room in a shared house - not really ideal for a married couple but maybe you could live like that for a while.


Noted as well. The "buying and reselling" cycle is definitely a war of attrition, although it seemed that basic household stuffs were fairly cheap in HCMC ... don't know about furnishings or appliances. I've survived North Sumatra for almost three years without A/C (other than in school), so living without in Vietnam I think would not be a problem. Fridge, gas stove, bed and wardrobe are a must, couple chairs and small tables should about do us, but there are always tendencies to "expand the territorial holdings'. True that we plan to resell most of our furniture and appliances when we leave Medan, too expensive to ship them to my wife's hometown I think (but we'll look into it later).

Quote:
Very many older, experienced but untrained teachers really struggle with a CELTA course and quite a few fail or fail to complete the coursework - the workload is extreme for 4 weeks.

I'm not saying you're a bad teacher - 90% of a CELTA is inapplicable when teaching young kids or larger (15+) monolingual classes. Having to learn to do things you know will not be usable in the classes you will actually teach can be a problem for some - but others can jump thru the hoops more readily.


That's what I've heard / read, and why I have some concern about it. And I would really prefer to take a course which is specifically, or at least partially, oriented towards teaching YL's, rather than one which is specifically NOT. Such courses do exist, I know, the problem being that they just do not have the name recognition and cachet that a CELTA or Trinity cert is rumored to carry. So, do I choose the no name cert that actually helps me learn what I want to learn, or the one that gives me the name but not necessarily the useful knowledge. Tough choice, but for pure marketability, it seems the CELTA would have to be the obvious one.

Cheers for the replies.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a CELTA extension for young learners - but you need a CELTA to do it..it's a racket any way you look at it - but so is any qualifications rigmarole.

If you have strong personal reasons to want a break from Indonesia then I think you will not do terribly in Vietnam even without a CELTA equiv. You have experience, you are clearly willing to make an effort at work so after a while you would find employment at one of the lower level places and work up from there. With a CELTA you could start a rung or two up the ladder - but it is moot how much more money you would make or how much less trouble you would have and whether this would be worth the 1000+USD to study a CELTA and factor in a month of not earning while you do the course....
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge, it's closer to 2000 USD (maybe between 15 - 1800), plus room and board ... probably over 2000 all told, plus the fact of no salary whilst doing the deed... thus the quandary.

The main goals, after all, are: 1) survive; 2) save money for the rainy days and the old age home; 3) enjoy life.

In terms of "you've got to spend money to make money", the potential return on investment from CELTA seems limited compared with either standing pat (no investment) and choosing from the opportunities which present themselves, or going the fuller route of iPGCE, MA-TESOL, QTS in the home country, etc, which might put me in the running for higher paying IS jobs (not top tier ones, but a higher salary bracket, anyway).

Thing is, I've only got so many years left, can pretty much count them on my fingers. I know for a fact that I can find decent(ish) paying work in several countries (Indonesia, China, Korea, Turkey) without going anywhere near the CELTA. Seems like that is true for Vietnam to some extent too. Of course, things are always changing, but that's why I think maybe I'm better off just playing out the string and keeping the 2000 USD in the bank.

By the way, what about the Cambridge TKT? Is this considered completely useless as a qualification (in terms of getting jobs)? I never hear anything about it in EFL circles, though it looks like a useful qualification to me.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd never heard of this TKT until you brought it up - which I think is the issue.

There are only two choices really - CELTA or Trinity Cert. I think there are a very few others accepted as equivalent but the bulk of TEFL certs are not and for good reason.

The TKT looks like a serious attempt to do something new - but it's not going to be on the same level as a CELTA.

All told I'd say a CELTA will set you back 4-5000 USD including air fares, accom, lost income and books you will have to buy. Gotta remember they have fixed start dates and you have to fit other work around them, so stopping work for a minimum 6-8 weeks is likely.

I'm sure you could pass if you set your mind to it - but it is no rubber stamp affair. They want to see you demonstrate their methods in the classroom and some older folks [and a fair few youngsters too] find it hard to do that. It's not an academic course with time to discuss the pros and cons of pair work or whatever - it's much more like learning to drive a car - do it their way or do it again until you do.

I've taught on TEFL certs and observed a Trinity TESOL course when the place I worked was planning to run courses for it so I have some inside knowledge.


Last edited by skarper on Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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toiyeuthitmeo



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKT is a Cambridge standardized exam, which when accompanied by a preparation course, is commonly used by non-Native speakers to demonstrate proficiency suitable for teaching TESOL at a rather basic level. It is not really recognized as a cert for native speakers.
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Good evening, Vietnam (and, what are my chances) Reply with quote

mysterytrain wrote:
I taught Oral English in a public school in Xinjiang, China for one year.


If you are willing to go back to China, EF has some really solid packages, if you do a 2 year contract you can get a TKT, Trinity Cert and/or a Trinity Dip. paid for, a nice salary of about $2,100 plus bennies like health insurance, which doesn't seem to matter as much when you're in your 20's or even 30's but it sure is a concern for anybody over 40 and if you have a family (your wife) it's an important concern.

Vietnam is highly unstable and/or anti-social work hours of the language schools of evenings and 20-30 hour marathon "weekends".
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skarper wrote:
Relocation costs are also pretty heavy here - houses etc are totally unfurnished or on the expensive side so you have to buy beds, fridges , cookers, aircon units - the whole shabang - and then reselling it all after a year or so you lose about 50% or the value.

Really? I've never known anyone to rent an unfurnished apartment. Not in Saigon, at least. In fact, in every apartment I've been in, I've managed to get the landlord to buy a couple of extra pieces of furniture before I moved in.

skarper wrote:
Very many older, experienced but untrained teachers really struggle with a CELTA course and quite a few fail or fail to complete the coursework - the workload is extreme for 4 weeks.

That's true, but I think a lot of that is down to attitude. We had some people who'd been teaching for a while on our course. Some of them were great and really open to new ideas, whereas others thought that because they'd be teaching (unqualified) for a while, they already knew everything and were not open to any criticism of their teaching practice. I think as long as you pretend you're learning from scratch, then you'll be fine. You can always take what you find useful and discard the rest after the course.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toiyeuthitmeo wrote:
TKT is a Cambridge standardized exam, which when accompanied by a preparation course, is commonly used by non-Native speakers to demonstrate proficiency suitable for teaching TESOL at a rather basic level. It is not really recognized as a cert for native speakers.


Thanks for the ifno. I guess that would help to explain why it doesn't seem to be discussed by native speaker teachers. Though I do know that some chains - like EF, as noted by Prof Gringo below - do offer assistance or paid tuition for courses including TKT ... maybe just intended for the non-native speakers they employ? However, it is sometimes mentioned in their ads recruiting native speakers only... so I'm still not 100% convinced: call it 90%.
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skarper wrote:
There is a CELTA extension for young learners - but you need a CELTA to do it..it's a racket any way you look at it - but so is any qualifications rigmarole.

There is a standalone CELTYL as well, but not many places do it.
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