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Banner41
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai
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 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Riff Raff wrote: |
After visiting several Tier One campuses in USA for research, all of whom have strong connections in China, I also saw job advertisements for Teaching English in China.
I can tell you some of the lies and propaganda being told on those campuses to unsuspecting students. Those students and graduates trust what they hear because they study at a top school.
If someone here wants to attempt to chronicle all the ESL scammers, good luck with that. Give him a sticky. Let it be updated in one place instead of every conversation. I would check that list as well as reviews from people on this site and other sites. |
I employ the "Don't be so stupid rules" when looking for employment.
Step 1. Don't take every offer at face value (they don't take every resume at face value)
2. READ the offer in detail
3. ASK questions
4. DO Research on the company/school/agency
5. READ what are the regulations in the country
6. Don't rely on the word of an agent
7. FIND out your recourse in any disputes
8. REFRAIN from looking stupid by getting deported after looking up 100 recruiters e-mails, spammy links, and posting them over and over on websites, get kicked off, start a new account, get kicked off, start a new account, get kicked off, start a new account, get kicked off, start a new account, get kicked off, start a new account, lose any credibility, get kicked off, start a new account, get kicked off, start a new account,etc
But that's just me. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:22 am Post subject: |
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"Either you deal with what is the reality, or you can be sure that the reality is going to deal with you." ~ Alex Haley, American novelist (1921 - 1992)
Frankly, it's difficult to reason with those who embody a victim mentality. If they believe they don't have control over a situation, they feel no sense of personal accountability. As such, they tend to take credit for positive (good) outcomes but not for negative (bad) ones. Case in point: "I successfully worked on an F visa and never got caught, so getting that visa was a good decision"; versus, "It's not my fault I got deported; that conniving, snake of a recruiter lied to me about working on an F visa." Instead of being angry with themselves for screwing up (i.e., acknowledging responsibility), it's easier to play the victim's blame game in various facets of their life by continually pointing the finger at others. Those with this mentality feel relief and vindication but also a false sense of power/control and self-importance. Additionally, they like playing the victim because of the attention it garners from others in the form of validation (sympathy and/or empathy), which is enabling because it reinforces their passive-aggressive behavior.
However, when the attention or feedback from others is perceived as negative, the victim feels threatened and generally will:
- repeat ad nauseam how he/she had been wronged, in hopes of pulling at inflexible heart strings;
- go on the defensive by making excuses to justify their situation;
- refuse to acknowledge others' advice or point of view;
- belittle dissenters' comments; and/or
- try to argue his/her position from the perspective that "we're all victims" in order to build solidarity and get everyone on the same page---the victim's page.
Anyway, there are other threads just like this one throughout the Cafe's forums. The story may be different, but the theme and the starring role are the same.
"Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order." ~ David Gerrold, American writer (1944 - ) |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
"Either you deal with what is the reality, or you can be sure that the reality is going to deal with you." ~ Alex Haley, American novelist (1921 - 1992)
Frankly, it's difficult to reason with those who embody a victim mentality. If they believe they don't have control over a situation, they feel no sense of personal accountability. As such, they tend to take credit for positive (good) outcomes but not for negative (bad) ones. Case in point: "I successfully worked on an F visa and never got caught, so getting that visa was a good decision"; versus, "It's not my fault I got deported; that conniving, snake of a recruiter lied to me about working on an F visa." Instead of being angry with themselves for screwing up (i.e., acknowledging responsibility), it's easier to play the victim's blame game in various facets of their life by continually pointing the finger at others. Those with this mentality feel relief and vindication but also a false sense of power/control and self-importance. Additionally, they like playing the victim because of the attention it garners from others in the form of validation (sympathy and/or empathy), which is enabling because it reinforces their passive-aggressive behavior.
However, when the attention or feedback from others is perceived as negative, the victim feels threatened and generally will:
- repeat ad nauseam how he/she had been wronged, in hopes of pulling at inflexible heart strings;
- go on the defensive by making excuses to justify their situation;
- refuse to acknowledge others' advice or point of view;
- belittle dissenters' comments; and/or
- try to argue his/her position from the perspective that "we're all victims" in order to build solidarity and get everyone on the same page---the victim's page.
Anyway, there are other threads just like this one throughout the Cafe's forums. The story may be different, but the theme and the starring role are the same.
"Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order." ~ David Gerrold, American writer (1944 - ) |
Nailed that one right on the head. |
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Juice
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:33 am Post subject: |
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And are you not realizing why this list a stupid idea? |
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Juice
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Kong wrote: |
And are you not realizing why this list a stupid idea? |
No Kong. What I am realizing is that all the imposters, liars, and false recruiters need to be identified in a first page sticky so newbies have a better chance of being warned. As I said before, most visitors to a web site don't make it past the first page and they don't know about blacklists nor all the good advice Bud, You, and others have in posts buried on page 5 threads for example. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| There is enough advice on the first page to let a newbie know what is what. Also, if they got to this webpage in the first place that hopefully means they are searching the web for relevant information. No sticky can help a person who disregards objective advice and takes the word of people asking them to do something illegal. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Juice wrote: |
| What I am realizing is that all the imposters, liars, and false recruiters need to be identified in a first page sticky so newbies have a better chance of being warned. As I said before, most visitors to a web site don't make it past the first page and they don't know about blacklists nor all the good advice. |
I agree with The Kong and Wangdaning. Besides, there already are a couple of stickies related to legal employment. Ironically, you yourself either didn't read that good advice or were dismissive of it when you decided to head to China.
As you and others have noted, recruiters change their names and contact info as often as they change their underwear. That's obvious, so there's really no point in spending time and energy creating (or reading) a never-ending, inaccurate hall-of-shame list. Instead, why not be proactive by offering friendly, useful tips or advice on how to be smart about getting a job in China (or in any other country) so that others don't end up in the same costly and embarrassing, illegal situation you put yourself in.
For example, tip #1: Don't accept recruiters' statements at face value; they don't all have the job seeker's interest at heart nor are they responsible if/when things go wrong for the individual once he/she is in country and "employed."
Which leads to tip #2: Do your research! Check out the visa and work permit rules of the country on official government sites. Seek clarification on country-specific TEFL websites and discussion forums like this one if you don't understand something. Do an Internet search for reviews on potential employers.
Lastly, tip #3: Thoroughly read the visa/work permit application acknowledgement before putting your name on that signature line, especially where it states you agree to abide by the country's laws and that you understand working under a tourist, student, or business visa is illegal.
Claiming to be clueless and trusting is just plain stupid---completely excusable and expected for a child but not for an adult making a major life change. Ditto for irresponsibly taking risky shortcuts about decisions as important as ensuring one is legally employed in a foreign country. Ignorance of the law is never a valid defense, and frankly, this type of mentality won't get anyone far in a profession that entails working abroad. |
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Juice
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| Juice wrote: |
| What I am realizing is that all the imposters, liars, and false recruiters need to be identified in a first page sticky so newbies have a better chance of being warned. As I said before, most visitors to a web site don't make it past the first page and they don't know about blacklists nor all the good advice. |
I agree with The Kong and Wangdaning. Besides, there already are a couple of stickies related to legal employment. Ironically, you yourself either didn't read that good advice or were dismissive of it when you decided to head to China.
As you and others have noted, recruiters change their names and contact info as often as they change their underwear. That's obvious, so there's really no point in spending time and energy creating (or reading) a never-ending, inaccurate hall-of-shame list. Instead, why not be proactive by offering friendly, useful tips or advice on how to be smart about getting a job in China (or in any other country) so that others don't end up in the same costly and embarrassing, illegal situation you put yourself in.
For example, tip #1: Don't accept recruiters' statements at face value; they don't all have the job seeker's interest at heart nor are they responsible if/when things go wrong for the individual once he/she is in country and "employed."
Which leads to tip #2: Do your research! Check out the visa and work permit rules of the country on official government sites. Seek clarification on country-specific TEFL websites and discussion forums like this one if you don't understand something. Do an Internet search for reviews on potential employers.
Lastly, tip #3: Thoroughly read the visa/work permit application acknowledgement before putting your name on that signature line, especially where it states you agree to abide by the country's laws and that you understand working under a tourist, student, or business visa is illegal.
Claiming to be clueless and trusting is just plain stupid---completely excusable and expected for a child but not for an adult making a major life change. Ditto for irresponsibly taking risky shortcuts about decisions as important as ensuring one is legally employed in a foreign country. Ignorance of the law is never a valid defense, and frankly, this type of mentality won't get anyone far in a profession that entails working abroad. |
You, like Bud ASSUMED that I knew about this web site before I signed my contract. I did not. I did not find Daves until a few weeks after I got to China. But all the other advice you give is spot on. I guess it comes down to whether people bother to go beyond what the agents and recruiters tell you. My recruiter came across as so friendly, warm, and helpful that I never felt the need to look elsewhere. She won my trust after our third Skype conversation and photos she sent me of the school where I was supposed to work and gave me $500 coupons for all sorts of sight seeing. I later learned that I would have to take a $3,000 tefl course to use the fricking coupons! |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Juice wrote: |
| I later learned that I would have to take a $3,000 tefl course to use the fricking coupons! |
Forget about the minutiae. My question to you: What have you truly learned from your experience? |
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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Juice wrote: |
You, like Bud ASSUMED that I knew about this web site before I signed my contract. I did not. I did not find Daves until a few weeks after I got to China. But all the other advice you give is spot on. I guess it comes down to whether people bother to go beyond what the agents and recruiters tell you. My recruiter came across as so friendly, warm, and helpful that I never felt the need to look elsewhere. She won my trust after our third Skype conversation and photos she sent me of the school where I was supposed to work and gave me $500 coupons for all sorts of sight seeing. I later learned that I would have to take a $3,000 tefl course to use the fricking coupons! |
But again, do a little research and you'll be fine. You were prepared to fly around the world on the advice you got from someone on the internet.
A word of warning - Don't reply to emails from a Nigerian prince. |
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The_Kong
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Shroob wrote: |
| Juice wrote: |
You, like Bud ASSUMED that I knew about this web site before I signed my contract. I did not. I did not find Daves until a few weeks after I got to China. But all the other advice you give is spot on. I guess it comes down to whether people bother to go beyond what the agents and recruiters tell you. My recruiter came across as so friendly, warm, and helpful that I never felt the need to look elsewhere. She won my trust after our third Skype conversation and photos she sent me of the school where I was supposed to work and gave me $500 coupons for all sorts of sight seeing. I later learned that I would have to take a $3,000 tefl course to use the fricking coupons! |
But again, do a little research and you'll be fine. You were prepared to fly around the world on the advice you got from someone on the internet.
A word of warning - Don't reply to emails from a Nigerian prince. |
Hey Juice, I got a nice bridge in Brooklyn for sale, you interested? |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| [i]"Either you ... |
There is such a thing as fraud and victims of fraud. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Riff Raff wrote: |
| There is such a thing as fraud and victims of fraud. |
Since you brought up fraud...
Lying to a job seeker about visas is unethical more than it is an act of fraud (in terms of breaking any law) because info about visas is considered public information and could easily have been verified by the so-called victim. However, when that job seeker deliberately lies on the visa application about his/her true purpose for entering the country, he/she is essentially perpetrating visa fraud against the Chinese government. In other words, the job seeker has broken the law by presenting false or misleading information on the application in order to secure a specific visa. Ironically, both the recruiter and the job seeker are considered duplicitous in their individual actions for self-gain but together are complicit in the overall scheme. |
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Juice
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| Riff Raff wrote: |
| There is such a thing as fraud and victims of fraud. |
Since you brought up fraud...
Lying to a job seeker about visas is unethical more than it is an act of fraud (in terms of breaking any law) because info about visas is considered public information and could easily have been verified by the so-called victim. However, when that job seeker deliberately lies on the visa application about his/her true purpose for entering the country, he/she is essentially perpetrating visa fraud against the Chinese government. In other words, the job seeker has broken the law by presenting false or misleading information on the application in order to secure a specific visa. Ironically, both the recruiter and the job seeker are considered duplicitous in their individual actions for self-gain but together are complicit in the overall scheme. |
All scams and frauds are unethical. But telling some one to come work on a L visa without telling them that doing so is a violation of law that can get them arrested, fined, and deported is criminal in my opinion. Some scams you can laugh at and learn from it, but a scam that gets YOU a criminal record and a reentry ban is something far more serious and the recruiters who dupe foreigners into becoming unwitting victims should be prosecuted. |
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