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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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 Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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That's interesting.
On the Vietnamese students being nice - for sure they are (on the whole) very nice. A problem I find is they are very passive and expect it all 'taught' to them. They also tend to use too much L1 in class making pair/group work difficult to make useful. They also tend to all have the same opinions but that is a minor issue.
I suspect (but I lack the data set to be sure) many teachers go along with the Vietnamese style, talking too much in class and using 'cheats' like pre-teaching vocabulary before a reading/listening task and letting students get away with coming to class and sitting meekly through lessons while doing and learning nothing.
I don't blame either party for this problem but I do think it is real and can make life for a new teacher straight off a Cert level course difficult. |
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ieltsteacher102
Joined: 24 Jun 2014
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:55 am Post subject: |
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managers are thugs bullies  schools/managers can enter your classroom at anytime and observe you why not afraid you are a substandard teacher and the best observations are ones that are unannounced any moron can deliver a proper lesson if given time the most important thing is can you deliver the goods day after day and yeah schools can also speak to your students at any time some of the comments in this thread are from people who cant teach and have emotional problems---- i agree that surveys should be illegal if not in contract  if you cant handle the heat get out of the kitchen |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
That's interesting.
On the Vietnamese students being nice - for sure they are (on the whole) very nice. A problem I find is they are very passive and expect it all 'taught' to them. They also tend to use too much L1 in class making pair/group work difficult to make useful. They also tend to all have the same opinions but that is a minor issue.
I suspect (but I lack the data set to be sure) many teachers go along with the Vietnamese style, talking too much in class and using 'cheats' like pre-teaching vocabulary before a reading/listening task and letting students get away with coming to class and sitting meekly through lessons while doing and learning nothing.
I don't blame either party for this problem but I do think it is real and can make life for a new teacher straight off a Cert level course difficult. |
I think if say you end up with Apollo or one other it could be very tough. Apollo conducted on sport observations and had Vietnamese staff given "free lessons"..in reality reporting back to DoS on you. As I mentioned there are only a few decent places to work in VN and they don't need to advertise much per year...only the worst places need to have constant ads on websites. In one of my better phases of employment, in the first 6-8 months there about 3 to 4 left, 3-4 arrived..out of 120 + teachers. How's that compared to the others? I'd say it's 5-10 a month coming and going from the other franchises..maybe more...mix of poor pay and management..10 times the turnover of the best place I worked in 6 months? And it was one observation a year and for contract renewal starting second year and that is fair..no more than that is needed. People do CELTAs so they know how to teach...DoSs obsessive about observation and serving criticism every 3 months is bad..so I say..refuse to work for them, tell everyone of the school..and really.. why do a Celta if school won't trust you? If I had my time again I'd do a fake tefl if I knew it was the VN franchise places.. as many don't care that you qualified and will treat you as a total novice anyway and find fault no matter how good you are, so why bother doing a real cert when they show such contempt? |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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To be fair a CELTA qualified teacher is not qualified - merely 'initiated' - the idea was for them to join a school which had qualified [Dip level] DoS and senior teachers who would mentor them to train them and keep them from slacking... but fat chance of that happening I know.
I agree the system is open to abuse and when they send in the front desk staff for free lessons/as spies it is a bad sign - but not necessarily the end of the world. If you're good you will not get complaints even if they are probing for them - the students will back you up out of loyalty unless you really are a bit rubbish.
Personally I have never really had an issue with being observed. If I felt they were looking for excuses to be rid of me I would leave ASAP of my own accord.
I just don't think you can write these kind of clauses into a contract and if you did they would just ignore it anyway. Just wasting your own time trying. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
I just don't think you can write these kind of clauses into a contract and if you did they would just ignore it anyway. Just wasting your own time trying. |
I think that's the truth of the matter. A school that's halfway decent won't need those clauses written into the contract. A school that's terrible won't matter if they're in the contract because they'll just ignore them.
So there's really no point in asking for them... |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| skarper wrote: |
I just don't think you can write these kind of clauses into a contract and if you did they would just ignore it anyway. Just wasting your own time trying. |
I think that's the truth of the matter. A school that's halfway decent won't need those clauses written into the contract. A school that's terrible won't matter if they're in the contract because they'll just ignore them.
So there's really no point in asking for them... |
A written procedure on feedback system is needed. If you go to work for a school without checking that first, you could be surprised. The franchises need to be made to outline that to potential teachers. I had Apolo management show up unannounced to observe once and staff placed in classes watching me. No doubt some will come and defend that though..generally the bullies get turned on by observation gigs so they will defend their role to the end. |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| ieltsteacher102 wrote: |
| managers are thugs bullies schools/managers can enter your classroom at anytime and observe you why not afraid you are a substandard teacher and the best observations are ones that are unannounced any moron can deliver a proper lesson if given time the most important thing is can you deliver the goods day after day and yeah schools can also speak to your students at any time some of the comments in this thread are from people who cant teach and have emotional problems---- i agree that surveys should be illegal if not in contract if you cant handle the heat get out of the kitchen |
I generally agree. Previously, when I had unannounced visits in my classroom, I direct my class's attention to the visitor.
"Hello Jock! Welcome to our classroom!"
"Class say hello to mr. Jock!" "Hello mr. Jock!"
"Do any of you have any questions about mr. Jock?"
"Mr. Jock, how old are you?"
"Where are you from?"
"Are you married?"
.........
makes my job a lot easier.  |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:42 am Post subject: |
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The only way to deal with bullies is to avoid them - don't work in their schools.
Standing up to bullies alas does not work - things escalate and get out of hand real fast. Just leave. In time those employing the bullies work out who the problem is but it is usually too late.
I agree it's a problem but don't think the solution is in the contract wording. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
The only way to deal with bullies is to avoid them - don't work in their schools.
Standing up to bullies alas does not work - things escalate and get out of hand real fast. Just leave. In time those employing the bullies work out who the problem is but it is usually too late.
I agree it's a problem but don't think the solution is in the contract wording. |
I think we agree on most stuff though. I would seek to ask fair questions at the interview stage e.g. "what is the process during the probationary period to determine contract formally a year? How is my evaluation determined?" And then if survey mentioned, you ask, "written or verbal?". If they say both...then be ask for clarifications as probationary is not what you fly across ocean for so you have right to dig a little to establish is deck is stacked. I worked for the best place in VN and observation was very good and constructive, 1 per year, survey done every 10 weeks and fair questions..all teachers done at same time and no sneaky phone calls or approaches behind teacher's back nor Apolo style surprise observations. I have worked for 4 places in Vietnam over many years and am certain of what I say..have seen best and worst and the in between |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Okie from Muskogee wrote: |
| ieltsteacher102 wrote: |
| managers are thugs bullies schools/managers can enter your classroom at anytime and observe you why not afraid you are a substandard teacher and the best observations are ones that are unannounced any moron can deliver a proper lesson if given time the most important thing is can you deliver the goods day after day and yeah schools can also speak to your students at any time some of the comments in this thread are from people who cant teach and have emotional problems---- i agree that surveys should be illegal if not in contract if you cant handle the heat get out of the kitchen |
I generally agree. Previously, when I had unannounced visits in my classroom, I direct my class's attention to the visitor.
"Hello Jock! Welcome to our classroom!"
"Class say hello to mr. Jock!" "Hello mr. Jock!"
"Do any of you have any questions about mr. Jock?"
"Mr. Jock, how old are you?"
"Where are you from?"
"Are you married?"
.........
makes my job a lot easier. |
esp when Mr Jock calls you in for meet 2 weeks later and fires you. Thanks Jock. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:31 am Post subject: |
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If you have a degree in any sort of teaching, you likely learned that being observed and observing other teachers on a regular basis is extremely profitable to you as a teacher. However, in practice, it rarely ever happens. Few schools want to pay teachers extra to observe classes, and few teachers want to do it for free and on their own time. Few directors have the time or desire to drop in on their teacher's classes as well. 1 observation a year sounds horrible in theory, but in practice, you're probably not going to get much more than that anyway.
The school I'm working at now usually only has observations for teachers if they're getting a large number of complaints from students. I think that's relatively normal for the industry. Unannounced observations are unprofessional, but I'd wager a guess that the reason you're getting them is because the school's received several complaints about your classes. Not by "fishing" for negative comments either. They're just checking to see if the complaints are well-founded or not. A good school will then schedule a follow-up with you to suggest areas you could improve in.
This can be quite abrasive for some teachers because most of us are extremely sensitive about our teaching. We shouldn't be, but it's hard not to be. Furthermore, these suggestions can go against what you as a teacher feel is most beneficial for the class. "Who does this guy think he is coming into my class and telling me what to do? He doesn't know my students, or what they need." But in reality you're going to need to jump through the hoops of your boss, and he's going to need to jump through the hoops of the students or if you're teaching children, their parents. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
If you have a degree in any sort of teaching, you likely learned that being observed and observing other teachers on a regular basis is extremely profitable to you as a teacher. However, in practice, it rarely ever happens. Few schools want to pay teachers extra to observe classes, and few teachers want to do it for free and on their own time. Few directors have the time or desire to drop in on their teacher's classes as well. 1 observation a year sounds horrible in theory, but in practice, you're probably not going to get much more than that anyway.
The school I'm working at now usually only has observations for teachers if they're getting a large number of complaints from students. I think that's relatively normal for the industry. Unannounced observations are unprofessional, but I'd wager a guess that the reason you're getting them is because the school's received several complaints about your classes. Not by "fishing" for negative comments either. They're just checking to see if the complaints are well-founded or not. A good school will then schedule a follow-up with you to suggest areas you could improve in.
This can be quite abrasive for some teachers because most of us are extremely sensitive about our teaching. We shouldn't be, but it's hard not to be. Furthermore, these suggestions can go against what you as a teacher feel is most beneficial for the class. "Who does this guy think he is coming into my class and telling me what to do? He doesn't know my students, or what they need." But in reality you're going to need to jump through the hoops of your boss, and he's going to need to jump through the hoops of the students or if you're teaching children, their parents. |
Which school are you DoS, ADoS, Academic Coordinator/manager at? "1 observation a year horrible"..I can feel your distrust of teachers in that very comment...your default is they arenot competent to be left alone.. and need much more. I hope you are not making someone's week a misery as a DoS/A DoS. I am not talking peer observation. I support them. It's bully DoS level stuff that needs explored more. Leave teachers alone unless complaints submitted by students in writing without soliciting by school. Everyone was happy and student retention high where I worked so give over with the horrible comments. Respect and trust are what we got and it worked |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:03 am Post subject: |
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This argument is becoming circular!
For the most part we agree at least.
Even in the very very best of what we have left in Vietnam, observations will be abused sometimes to get at teachers the bullying DoS/boss dislikes for some reason. A LOT of the people at that level have risen there like the scum on the pond - and lack basic teaching, management and professional skills.
We have to deal with this or we have to leave. Some are better than others for sure and we can over time gravitate to the places with competent or at least 'hands off' management.
But it is a fact of life in TEFL that management is rubbish. The best TEFL management is that which practices a 'masterly inactivity' [Anyone else remember Yes Prime Minister?] but sadly the 'look busy or they'll realize I'm just an old white monkey they hired to take the blame when everything goes to ratshit' style is far more common.
The best thing to do with these unannounced drop in observations is to utterly ignore them and any follow up meeting 'notes' they give you. Just nod and be non-committal. They will soon get bored [if you have had to observe classes regularly as I did in one job I had you will know how tedious it is] so they will not do it for long.
If it's just part of the routine then it will go away after a while - if it is harassment and they want you to leave start looking for another job and move on when you have one.
On the flying half way round the world to be a probationer point I couldn't agree more - NEWS FLASH - TEFL is not a serious job more of an alternative lifestyle and this is especially so in Vietnam. Do not come here if you expect a professional working environment - you will not find it even in the best of best of what's left. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
This argument is becoming circular!
For the most part we agree at least.
Even in the very very best of what we have left in Vietnam, observations will be abused sometimes to get at teachers the bullying DoS/boss dislikes for some reason. A LOT of the people at that level have risen there like the scum on the pond - and lack basic teaching, management and professional skills.
We have to deal with this or we have to leave. Some are better than others for sure and we can over time gravitate to the places with competent or at least 'hands off' management.
But it is a fact of life in TEFL that management is rubbish. The best TEFL management is that which practices a 'masterly inactivity' [Anyone else remember Yes Prime Minister?] but sadly the 'look busy or they'll realize I'm just an old white monkey they hired to take the blame when everything goes to ratshit' style is far more common.
The best thing to do with these unannounced drop in observations is to utterly ignore them and any follow up meeting 'notes' they give you. Just nod and be non-committal. They will soon get bored [if you have had to observe classes regularly as I did in one job I had you will know how tedious it is] so they will not do it for long.
If it's just part of the routine then it will go away after a while - if it is harassment and they want you to leave start looking for another job and move on when you have one.
On the flying half way round the world to be a probationer point I couldn't agree more - NEWS FLASH - TEFL is not a serious job more of an alternative lifestyle and this is especially so in Vietnam. Do not come here if you expect a professional working environment - you will not find it even in the best of best of what's left. |
Good post Skarper. You write like Viet EFL vet like me. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| skarper wrote: |
NEWS FLASH - TEFL is not a serious job more of an alternative lifestyle and this is especially so in Vietnam. Do not come here if you expect a professional working environment - you will not find it even in the best of best of what's left. |
While I can agree that a good number of the no-name English centers which open up and employ 2-4 teachers definitely fit that description, to throw all schools in Vietnam out with them is misguided extreme. There are schools out there that strive to be professional and retain their good teachers. I've been lucky enough to work for a few places whose values on education and student care are the same as my own. Of course at the end of the day, the school is still a business which needs to make money to stay open, but not every one is trying to squeeze the students and teachers for every penny they can.
Some people are obviously a bit jaded and have experienced a lot of the bad Vietnam has to offer. But the attitude that management is the scum and just out to degrade and ruin good teachers is the attitude that will result in finding yourself pushing 50, still in the classroom, no savings, and prospects for promotion or betting your lifestyle.
That might sound fine to some. I've known a lot of people who are perfectly happy to live hand to mouth for the rest of their days. It's just not where I hope to be in 10-20 years. |
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