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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:46 am Post subject: |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| coder wrote: |
Sorry, but if I were an employer, I would not accept any online degree and only reluctantly would I accept an online certificate (and only for the lowest jobs at that).
In my view, any serious educational pursuit is more than simply “completing the assignments" and taking tests and exams. The real value of an education is how it “shapes” you in a broad sense by interacting with others in your field, by having a 1st rate library available to you, by having your subject matter become the central part of your life, by associating and reacting with your peers on a face to face and on a daily basis, by having personal contact with world-recognized experts in a field and so on. None of these crucial educational experiences is available “online”. |
When were you last in university? You paint quite an inaccurate picture of distance/online learning in the 21st century. |
Wholeheartedly agree with NS...online learning has come along way ...it is a virtual classroom set up...you interact with classmates and professors in real time...collaborate on projects on line also in real time...you have access to all documents from a wide variety of library resources. If anything studying online is often a lot more difficult especially if you are across time zones. The work load is just as rigorous on line. Of course all degrees should be verified either from online or brick and mortar....unfortunately many people still try to obtain fake degrees. |
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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:19 am Post subject: |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Like it or not...on -line learning is here to stay. You will either embrace it or fight it and loose the battle.
I am not a huge fan of a lot of the technology but still recognize that this is the state of education in 21st century....and do my best to keep up as we are expected to use technology in the classroom. Most professions rely on technology...if you abhor technology you will be forever sitting in the sidelines without a job.
Collaboration can take many forms... presentations, group discussions & debates, projects. Essay writing ...be it on- line or in a brick and mortar classroom is equally rigorous in terms of APA rules, etc. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: humbug |
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| I feel this obsession with technology is misguided. As with the new-fangled obsession with horseless carriages and flying machines, it will benefit Humanity not one jot. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not going to weigh in on the legitimacy of online/distance education (haven't completely made up my mind yet), but a couple points:
| coder wrote: |
| 3. “You interact with classmates and professors in real time”…..No you don’t. As you mentioned, you might be in totally different time zones precluding a realistic “interaction”. Also, you’re not “interacting” with your peers…..you’re interacting with the computer which is not the same thing. Again, you’re pretending you’re doing something which you’re really not doing. |
You have said how interaction in online and face-to-face learning are different, but you haven't said yet how face-to-face learning is necessary. You said that "real" interaction involves "seeing a person's body language in the flesh, hearing certain nuances in a phrase, the movement of the eyes", and it is clear that these are important for communication, but it's not clear to me how these affect the amount of learning from a course.
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| 4. “collaborate”…..the most hated word in IT and education. Real knowledge and real education is a lonely, individual project. |
Vygotsky is rolling in his grave.
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| 5. Having “access” to all documents assumes you are already an expert in a field and know what to look for. The beauty of a brick and mortar library is that you can actually hold and see and explore an entire field just by visiting sections of the stacks. That’s how I really learned my field….not just by attending classes, but by spending hour after hour searching and exploring all these books I never knew existed in my field. All those positively astonishing bibliographies! No way could I have done that via computer/IT. Not even close. |
I'm not sure when you were in (graduate) school, but nowadays about 99% of the academic resources I use are online. Printed books are often outdated, and trawling the library stacks is usually useful only for a thin layer of historical background (which can often be gleaned from the literature reviews of more recent studies anyway). I can get much more useful information from research syntheses and journal articles (and nowadays book chapters, too) available online. |
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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| coder wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| When were you last in university? You paint quite an inaccurate picture of distance/online learning in the 21st century. |
Oh, I don’t think I paint an inaccurate picture at all. I think my description is quite accurate. I myself have never taken an online course, I will admit. But I sure have seen plenty of people do so and it all seemed so phony, contrived and unconvincing just watching them go through with it. I honestly can’t say I was watching a “transformation” of an amateur into a “professional” educator. What I saw was the hatching of a pretty much useless fraud. |
Uh, we're to believe your claim that you've actually sat alongside others and observed them taking an entire university course online. This certainly confirms you have an inaccurate picture of what constitutes e-learning. If you were to take a uni course online, you'd repaint that picture. But then, some people aren't cut out for e-learning, especially if they hold preconceived notions about nontraditional forms of learning. "Old skool" teaching and learning with a dusty blackboard-n-chalk has become just that: old.
| and coder wrote: |
| “You interact with classmates and professors in real time”…..No you don’t. As you mentioned, you might be in totally different time zones precluding a realistic “interaction”. Also, you’re not “interacting” with your peers…..you’re interacting with the computer which is not the same thing. Again, you’re pretending you’re doing something which you’re really not doing. |
Therefore, by your own account, you've been interacting solely with your computer, rather than with real people, each time you post a question, response, or comments on these discussion forums. By the way, communication is also asynchronous and not always in real time (synchronous)---just like sending handwritten letters but with quicker delivery.  |
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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Educational technology is a tool that can be useful in the right hands. It's often confused with computers and in language learning with CALL but in reality it's no different than any other technological advancement. Some members of this forum will have experienced being taught or teaching using a blackboard and chalk, others will have only ever encountered whiteboards and marker pens. Some may even remember the introduction of language labs! It's not the tools that matter it's how they are used. Modern teacher training courses should include training in the use of technology, too many places invest in equipment without training the teachers in how to use it effectively with the prime example being smartboards.
One of the greatest skills for a teacher is knowing when to use technology rather than just using it because it's there. The question must be asked as to whether it enhances the delivery of material or not. There are fringe benefits as well, the use of learning platforms to make information available to students is environmentally friendly, no need for handouts wasting paper and ink. An activity in class that is created jointly by teacher and students using a simple Word document can be posted immediately and remain available for as long as it is needed. With mixed ability groups interactive exercises can allow students to work at their own pace.
The tools are there, use them wisely but learn how to use them first! |
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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by coder on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Fifth Column
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 331
Location: His habitude with lexical items protrudes not unlike a damaged pollex!!!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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On the upside, maybe we have entered the age of "It's the computer's fault" that my spawn failed the test!  |
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myohmy
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| But everyone knows that jet travel is a nightmare anymore... |
Is this a correct use of the word "anymore"? Never heard it used this way. Normally one would say "jet travel is not pleasant anymore". At any rate, I may be wrong, but my gut tells me that the person who is making snide remarks about the misuse of the word "along" and occasional spelling mistakes by forum posters is far from a perfect grammarian himself. I would even go so far as to say that technology has left this guy in the dust and he won't even attempt to keep up because, well, you can't teach an old dog... |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| coder wrote: |
You give a logical, non-hysterical account of an ideal situation in class where “technology” (writ large) works. It’s a good sales pitch.
The problem is it’s an ideal – it’s not really how things work in the real world.
In the real world, the teacher has no choice. He must - he has to - it is mandatory - that he use the just purchased system in class – doesn’t matter whether it works or not. What matters is that he use it in class whether he wants to or not. It is a requirement of his keeping his job.
You say: “the question must be asked as to whether it enhances the delivery of material or not.”
Again, sounds nice, but that’s not how it works in the real world. In the real world you---must----not---ask whether it enhances the delivery of material. You are to keep your mouth shut and “use” the new and expensive system just purchased. The implied answer is : “Of course it enhances the delivery. Better minds than yours have determined that it should, so don’t you dare ask whether it actually enhances the delivery of material or not. It does (because it’s supposed to and because it was expensive). |
I'm the teacher and I decide how to teach, what materials to use and if and when I should use technology. If the employer doesn't accept that then we part company, it's that simple. I'm a specialist in ed tech but don't believe that teachers should be forced to use it, however I do believe that they should be trained properly to do so in order that they can make an informed decision. I also think that the teaching staff should be involved in the decisions regarding what technology should be bought rather than imposing some administrator's ideas on the matter. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| coder wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| We're to believe your claim that you've actually sat alongside others and observed them taking an entire university course online. This certainly confirms you have an inaccurate picture of what constitutes e-learning. |
Yes, I pretty much did that. These were collegues and I was able to "interact" with them quite personally at work while they did their "courses". I didn't want to be too critical of course, and "hurt" them, but I often had a hard time not guffawing out loud. |
You already hold a preconceived notion that online learning is laughable and therefore, saw what you wanted to see, if that's even to be believed. However, a reality check: Taking a university course via e-learning is more than simply being online to submit assignments, participate in discussion threads, take quizzes, view/listen in on lectures, etc. In other words, the majority of learning doesn't occur while the student is logged into the course just as it isn't for those taking the same course on campus.
Your bizarre jet travel analogy doesn't warrant a comment. But as you stated, you've never taken a university course online. Making strong blanket statements about something you don't have hands-on, personal experience with only hurts your credibility. |
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