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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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 Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
A basis? A citation? As I have said, take it up with IELTS. It seems to me that you have not actually undergone any IELTS examiner training. Nothing I have written is my assertion. It is an integral part of the training you'll get if you want to become an IELTS speaking examiner.
And incidentally, we are not talking about abstract reasoning as a demonstration of intelligence. You might be, but you are alone there. IELTS requires that test-takers be able to discuss in English depersonalised, abstract topics, develop them, provide examples, justifications, express predictions etc. |
No citation? 
Sure, Sasha, if all you meant by "in the abstract" was a depersonalization, or rather to avoid expository, personal narratives, then I'm wrong to have corrected your post. I am intrigued by your expression. The opposite of personal is abstract? Of the topics prompted by an IELTS examiner, how many are "abstract topics"? Such as love or beauty?
But "examples, justifications, predictions etc.," is a more precise description of what an IELTS examiner can code for.
Thank you. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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You were indeed wrong. But your apology is acceptable to me.
And I simply must compliment you on your growing awareness of how to make your posts more comprehensible. Almost like a different poster! Much more intriguing! Bravo! |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
You were indeed wrong. But your apology is acceptable to me.
And I simply must compliment you on your growing awareness of how to make your posts more comprehensible. Almost like a different poster! Much more intriguing! Bravo! |
No, child (to proffer an imitation), I had to wrestle your meaning from "topics" expressed "in the abstract" which was neither correct nor intelligible.
To repeat myself: "The development of a response to an IELTS prompt can be concretely and plainly accomplished without all the the cultural baggage." No abstractions are necessary. A claim, or claims, their basis, and conclusions (which can include predictions) are characterized by examples, reasons, justifications and appeals. These are typically referred to as conventions and are present across cultures and langauges.
An expository, personal narrative doesn't typically demonstrate the range of rhetoric available to a proficient "speaker".
What any learner is dissuaded from is relating a personal experience (such as a vacation) as a string of "and then".
IELTS topics are not typically "abstract" concepts, but concrete in character, such as one's home town, or relationship with another human being or cultural celebration. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Now, if we could just encourage you to write posts that are more relevant to the thread at hand instead of addressing other posters... |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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"I had to wrestle your meaning from "topics" expressed "in the abstract" which was neither correct nor intelligible."
Ha! Wrestle meaning? Did it beg a tedium too? : )
Perhaps I didn't suggest this before - take your objections to IELTS. This is what they want. They use the word 'abstract'. If this unsettles you, then I am sure they'd be delighted to hear your thoughts on the matter. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| They use the word 'abstract'. If this unsettles you, then I am sure they'd be delighted to hear your thoughts on the matter. |
Cite it in the band descriptors. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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The only materials to which you have access, the public band descriptors? Not in them, I'm afraid.
You should consider applying for IELTS examiner training. All your questions will be answered by the examiner trainer. Your posts to a thread about TOEFL and IELTS would be more focused as well. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| But you'd need to pass their requirements in order to be selected. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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And for those other posters who may doubt the 'abstract' nature of Part 3, here are a few citations. They were very much in demand.
http://takeielts.britishcouncil.org/prepare-test/understand-test-format/speaking-test
[i]Part 3 Two-way discussion 4-5 minutes The examiner will ask you further questions which are connected to the topic of Part 2. These questions are designed to give you an opportunity to discuss more abstract issues and ideas.
http://www.britishcouncil.org/professionals-exams-ielts-speaking-2.htm
"Part 3
In the third part of the speaking test you will be asked to discuss more general issues related to the part 2 topic. This part will be much more abstract and the examiner will be interested in how well you express your ideas and opinions about these issues."
http://www.idp.com/philippines/ielts/prepareforielts/testformat
"Part 3
You will be asked further questions connected to the topic in Part 2. These questions give you an opportunity to discuss more abstract issues and ideas. This part lasts between four and five minutes.
The Speaking component is delivered in such a way that does not allow you to rehearse set responses beforehand."
http://www.cambridgeenglish.org/exams/ielts/whats-in-the-test/
"Part 3 – Discussion
What's involved?
In Part 3, you and the examiner discuss issues related to the topic in Part 2 in a more general and abstract way and, where appropriate, in greater depth.
Part 3 lasts 4–5 minutes.
What skills are tested? This part tests your ability to explain your opinions and to analyse, discuss and speculate about issues."[/i] |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Those who know something about this testing system will immediately recognise that the British Council, IDP Australia, and Cambridge are the institutions that developed and manage IELTS.
I trust that those sources and citations will meet with universal approval... |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
The only materials to which you have access, the public band descriptors? Not in them, I'm afraid. [emphasis mine]
You should consider applying for IELTS examiner training. |
You're a pip!
Know what a non-disclosure agreement is, Mr. Information?
I was hoping Bud Powell would chime in, but maybe later.
Your poor grasp of the idiom "in the abstract" is what I objected to. "Informing" members of this forum with your own examiner/testee dialogue was quaint. Your explanation of it was an interpretation of a procedure.
When it comes to metrics and measures, I prefer to score my own designs. I surveyed what what IELTS makes available for a speaking measure, along with Cambridge, Canada's Cultural Advisory Group, TOEFL and sources through ERIC to supplement the curricular exams of some 9000 students for two academic years.
Which isn't exactly kosher for curricular exams, but what I design must work within the constraints of a client. There wasn't exactly a curricula in place.
IELTS work is exacting and tedious and not priced accordingly-- nearly exploitive by some reports.
But your advocacy for training is hardly unsurprising. It's what you can comprehend. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I know what it is. I have disclosed nothing confidential.
You've never heard the phrase 'speaking in the abstract'?
Would be great if you could do anything at all to address the OP, of course... |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, citations!
Thank you!
I was writing when those came up. By an NDA, I addressed your saying what was publically available as that's alll that's available without breaking it.
5 posts in a row...woo hoo!
The instructions to a testee are clear: an opportunity to discuss in more abstract terms...
I couldn't be more wrong, could I?
Phew! |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Yip. Five posts - all related to IELTS in the main. And what are yours related to, when not trying to flame? |
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