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Fixing the birth rate
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Maitoshi

Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 718
Location: 何処でも

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:31 am Post subject:

TokyoLiz wrote:

RM1983 said,

Quote:

Violence as an outlet for anger doesnt really work well outside of activities like martial arts Id say.

If you bring anger into the dojo, we show you the door. If you won't go on your own, we'll help you leave.

nightsofdreams, you miss the point again. No, martial arts, modern sporting arts or old traditional ones don't make people more manly. If students apply themselves, they become more disciplined, self-directed, confident and strong. These are marks of maturity, not exclusively of manliness.

This!

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:16 am Post subject:

G Cthulhu wrote:

Apparently that would be bad according to some here. Although, admittedly, the person that said that seems to be confusing anger with violence - one is a drive and the other is an action and choice.

I'm still of the opinion that conflating a learned social response with "manhood" is farcical. And violence is very much a learned response IMO, as most martial arts training (certainly, IMO, any good MA training) teaches. Prosaic examples abound: look at the likelihood of violence as a result of drinking across various countries. In the UK it's almost guaranteed. In Italy or Japan it's contrastingly rare. Visit countries with substantial cultural traditions and acceptance of violence (like the UK or the US) and you'll encounter the idea that alcohol loosens inhibitions and that violence is a natural result. Yet that chain of thought doesn't work in other countries. Anger=violence is a social & culturally learnt pattern of what is "acceptable" and "normal". MA training is another example, although more subtle. Certain arts display it at higher levels than others. Aikido, for example, it's essentially a stated goal to avoid actual violence, although it may well look like it to someone that doesn't understand what they're looking at.

Anger is certainly natural. Violence is certainly common and will often come from anger. The form, timing, pattern, levels, and limits are all social & cultural constructs. But to say that it is "natural" to males (or females) and must be "expressed" lest the person be considered "emasculated" is holding humans to a particularly low standard. It's as ridiculous as saying the Japanese are emasculated because they don't wear generally shoes inside: pure cultural ignorance and imperialism IMO.

On a trivial note, it also ignores the widespread violence in Japanese society - as anyone that's been in a middle or high school in Japan will understand.

Social and cultural will influence how anger/violence are channeled, but they are both universal aspects of humanity. Comparing basic human drives to wearing shoes is such a terrible analogy, I just don't know what to say here smh

With alcohol related violence, I believe you are reaching an incorrect conclusion. The former colonies of Britain all experienced serious temperance movements which changed societal views on alcohol consumption. Often relating it to lower/base behavior, which possibly made it more of a fringe activity. Hence violence became associated with it. While in places like Japan and Italy, alcohol was and still is socially acceptable, hence the radically different attitudes.

Also note, though that alcohol related violence is on the rise in Japan. According the the posters at my station, it has nearly doubled (attacked on station staff) in the past 3 years.

Why Aikido of all MAs? The most fluffy could/least based in reality MA there is(that doesn't involve chi blasts). A much more effective and less damaging way to deal with a violent confrontation would be to use wrestling/Judo to take the attacker down, obtain a dominate position, and control them.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:19 am Post subject:

RM1983 wrote:

Has nothing to do with masculinity. Unless you are trolling here

Two pages of a thread about the falling birth rate, mainly talking about wimpy Japanese guys???[/quote]

Well Very Happy

this thread could go on forever, when dealing with how wimpy young Japanese guys are.

But the French did a great job dealing with their falling fertility rate. I think that despite all their great social programs, that the ongoing terrible economy has finally shown that the social programs can not win against sustained high unemployment and poor job prospects.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:21 am Post subject:

RM1983 wrote:

Violence as an outlet for anger doesnt really work well outside of activities like martial arts Id say. Usually just amplifies things. You have to worry about who might be coming back after you with a brick or a knife.

Ive sometimes heard that depression is mainly anger turned inwards though and that is a big problem.

If we consider suicide to be a violent act (and I probably would) then Japan could be said to be quite a violent place

Indeed, one shouldn't start random fights, as there are too many consequences. But even sports are good to do, and are a great outlet for aggression.

The depression being a form of self violence, is a good example.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:25 am Post subject:

nightsintodreams wrote:

I agree with Liz, I think Japanese women (especially younger women) are way tougher and more mature than the average Japanese man of the same age.

As for calling people balless, well it's a metaphor. As I'm sure you're well aware the English language has quite a few of them.

All I'll say about violence/ taking a few hits etc as a good form of character building is this...

Just look at your students who do Judo, martial arts, rugby, kick boxing, American Football etc, and you will be sure to notice that they are far more mature than their peers. The way they act, carry themselves and even the look in their eyes is just (sorry for lack of a better phrase) manlier or tougher than their peers. Would you not agree?

Agreed, women here seem to be stronger, consistently so.

As Liz said, dealing with a tough situation, like basic training is good character building.
I personally think every male should be involved in some sort of fight in their life, esp if it is in a controlled setting. As there is nothing more humbling, and hence something that makes one reflect, than losing a fight.

I do BJJ here, and Inotice that the guys are much more real, easier to deal with/talk to. As they aren't passive aggressive, whiny nor needy. It's weird, it is like they are mostly reasonable people.

RM1983

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:24 am Post subject:

rxk22 wrote:

RM1983 wrote:

Yeah I agree with that. Even something like yoga makes you more confident.

Actually when I came here I was working quite a heavy schedule and just not looking after myself well. I noticed after a while that I became quite passive aggressive, snarky to people I had just met, a bit of a bitch basically.

I started just lifting weights a few times a week and it steadied me out quite a lot. My gf said this week that my attitude is very different from that time.

The other change I made - less smart phone!!!

nightsintodreams

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:43 am Post subject:

Quote:

RM1983 said,
Quote:
Violence as an outlet for anger doesnt really work well outside of activities like martial arts Id say.

If you bring anger into the dojo, we show you the door. If you won't go on your own, we'll help you leave.

nightsofdreams, you miss the point again. No, martial arts, modern sporting arts or old traditional ones don't make people more manly. If students apply themselves, they become more disciplined, self-directed, confident and strong. These are marks of maturity, not exclusively of manliness.

I think that perhaps you have missed the point. I made a distinction between the maturity of students who have played a contact/ combat sport and those who have not. If as you say, it was just a case of students learning to apply themselves as you suggest, then there would be no distinction, as pretty much all the students have had to do this in their respective bukatsu and in their studies at school.

Maitoshi

Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 718
Location: 何処でも

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:44 am Post subject:

To bring it back to the OP and relate to that last post, here's a thought: less smartphone use might also aid with increasing the birth rate.

RM1983

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:49 am Post subject:

Maitoshi wrote:

To bring it back to the OP and relate to that last post, here's a thought: less smartphone use might also aid with increasing the birth rate.

Like that joke about the poor family having 8 kids cos they didnt have a tv

G Cthulhu

Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:23 am Post subject:

rxk22 wrote:

Take it up with the academics and their research papers. And who'd have thought - places & cultures change? Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Why Aikido of all MAs? The most fluffy could/least based in reality MA there is(that doesn't involve chi blasts). A much more effective and less damaging way to deal with a violent confrontation would be to use wrestling/Judo to take the attacker down, obtain a dominate position, and control them.

If you have to ask "why aikido" with the point that was being made and then mention judo then there's nothing to talk about between us. I'm not going to bother if you're so ill-informed.

Maitoshi

Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 718
Location: 何処でも

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:44 am Post subject:

Yeah, C. Having practiced Aikido and Judo, Aikido would be my first choice for the stated purpose. Judo can do some serious damage to those who do not know how to fall.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:40 am Post subject:

Maitoshi wrote:

To bring it back to the OP and relate to that last post, here's a thought: less smartphone use might also aid with increasing the birth rate.

As Liz said, I think having maternity leave honored, as well as having day care readily available is what needs to happen.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:51 am Post subject:

Maitoshi wrote:

Yeah, C. Having practiced Aikido and Judo, Aikido would be my first choice for the stated purpose. Judo can do some serious damage to those who do not know how to fall.

You did both, and still think Aikido is worthwhile for self defense? I have done MAs since 1996 or so, and as a pure art, as in only doing that art alone, Aikido is near worthless. As is small circle Jiu jitsu, but small circle is usually practiced with another art, such as Karate. While Aikido is done by it's self.
Aikidoka never spar with resisting partners, so their pretending to parry a punch from someone punching a meter from their head, is not very applicable.
While in Judo, you spar and drill with varying degrees of resistance. Which makes a Judoka effective. Also, not all Judo throws are Ippons(your Judo sensei would be disappointed at you), you can take someone down with out throwing them over your head/shoulder. O Soto Gari would be one, which is easy to set up from a self defense style clinch. It also lets you do small circle JJ, or Aikido techs.

Aikido is a joke in the MA world, and for good reason, it is intended as the cap stone to your MA training, but instead it is practiced alone. I have never met any practitioner of it that could do any of the moves on a resisting person, as they simply never have trained to actually preform them.

While I have done wrestling, Muay Thai, Karate, and wrestling. Which means I can deal with someone striking at me, or trying to take me down, and apply SCJJ on them in real life. I would not have faith in being able to apply any Aikido tech in real life with just Aikido alone.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:53 am Post subject:

G Cthulhu wrote:

If you have to ask "why aikido" with the point that was being made and then mention judo then there's nothing to talk about between us. I'm not going to bother if you're so ill-informed.

How is that? I guess Judo is all just crazy over the head throws and wasn't founded with efficiency in mind at all? Have you done either style, even once? You are clearly speaking out of ignorance, as usual here.

Maitoshi

Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 718
Location: 何処でも

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:07 am Post subject:

Keep preaching rk! You might teach me a thing or two I think as I mentioned before on this thread, I'm a pacifist. If stated purpose is to defend without injury to the other party, I stand by my statement that I would choose Aikido each time for that purpose. As I'm sure you are aware, both Aikido and Judo share the same roots, so some of the less obviously Judo techniques also have some similar options in Aikido. I agree that studying Aikido for a short time is insufficient for self-defense. A karate novice vs. Aikido novice, my money's on the Karate kid (tee hee). This is not the case for a master of each, in my view. Many other aspects will weigh into the match.

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