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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| coder wrote: |
| The straw that should have broken the camel's back, however, is the revelation that they will provide a "business" visa and not a "work" visa. |
Yep. That's the elephant in the room that gets ignored by those teachers who tout business/work visit visas. The sponsors, on the other hand, don't give a darn if the teachers are illegally employed. |
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John Browne
Joined: 23 Aug 2014
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| coder wrote: |
| John Browne wrote: |
"Cancel out", not necessarily. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other,
as one person's experience is often different from another's. . |
That's why it's pointless to ask questions such as yours (Is it really all that bad?). You're going to get a distribution of replies ranging from "it's heaven" to "it's the worst job in the Kingdom". Who are you going to believe?
The straw that should have broken the camel's back, however, is the revelation that they will provide a "business" visa and not a "work" visa.
No matter what else they say, providing a business visa to a regular employee means that 1 - they don't have the pull necessary to obtain regular work visas for their employees and/or 2 - they don't take ESL jobs seriously and are hoarding their allotted "work" visas for the really important employees (administrators, Deans etc.) they hope to snag.
That means, ultimately, that your "friend" (if there really is one) is from day one at the bottom of the totem pole. Let "him" figure out what that's going to mean to him when he gets to KSA. Just for starters, he'll be working illegally having the same legal status and backing as a Mexican illegally crossing the US border and working in the fields. In a word, he's asking for trouble.
It's important to remember (which means it's almost always forgotten or conveniently overlooked), that ESL teachers in KSA (and the Gulf in general) are not really wanted by your regular employers. They are considered a huge burden and annoyance and English depts. or units exist solely because the KSA govt. insists that English programs exist. Were it not for this governmental stipulation, most ESL programs would cease to exist overnight. It's important to remember all this because the attitudes and assistance etc that you face from day one are all based on this employer aversion to English teachers. They really don't want you around but are forced to take you. This applies to all categories of employers - unis, military, govt. private etc.
Not that my words or any others on this thread is going to change anything. Your friend and possibly you are already committed to this job. I can tell just by the way you've been responding. You are convinced that your particular case is "different" and that you will be welcomed with open arms at your destination.
Bonne chance. |
Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
I don't agree that it's ever "pointless" to ask, as I was hoping to get anyone's and everyone's input and feedback on their own experiences or those of people they know.
There was some very important info provided here that everyone will find useful. I didn't know that receiving a "Business Visa" was a negative. So that advice right there is worth its weight in cyber gold. The other feedback re. how foreign teachers are viewed by students and other Saudis is equally important. The bracketed behaviour of administrators and so on, as described here above and elsewhere, is important too. I've worked in semi-hostile school environments and have usually been able to work things out, but not in a place with such difficult working and living conditions like Saudi.
On that note, I'd add that the behaviour attributed to Saudi students is not uncommon in other countries, especially in private ESL schools where students' families pay big tuitions. The brats have the power to demand not to be bored and the worst thing that can happen to a teacher is for a few of them to go to the director to complain about not having fun in class. This was my experience in Vancouver in a well known and very popular for-profit ESL school. The behaviour attributed to management types is not uncommon either, though again, the big difference is that you're somewhat "trapped" in a desert place.
All in all it would seem best to look elsewhere.
Thanks for everyone's input. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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5th Column
I see it as my duty to dissuade people from visiting the UK (which is crumbling in front of us as I write this !) |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| John Browne wrote: |
| I didn't know that receiving a "Business Visa" was a negative. So that advice right there is worth its weight in cyber gold. |
Seriously, it's odd you say you didn't know about business/work visit visas when that info was right in front of you in that linked McGill thread you included in your initial post, specifically:
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Visa costs will be covered (mostly); however, be aware that you will technically not be permitted to work in the country. Shhhhh! Don't tell anyone ; )
....
If you are interested in "working" (illegally) for the premiere labor force in the eastern province of Saudi Arabia, please contact... |
Plus, this type of visa has been discussed numerous times throughout this forum. But apparently, you were so focused on the prestige of the McGill name that you somehow "overlooked" this part of info you yourself directed others to.
Anyway... If you or your friend are still considering employment in KSA, you'll want to avoid any and all sponsors who mention bringing you over on any type of visit visa. The requirements for obtaining a proper employment/work visa entail taking a battery of medical lab tests, a med exam, criminal background check, etc., before you arrive in KSA. Also greatly lower your expectations in terms of what it's like to live and work in KSA---else you'll end up disappointed. |
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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:53 am Post subject: |
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delete
Last edited by coder on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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neftoprestupnik
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| John Browne wrote: |
A friend was just offered an ELT job thru McGill to work in Jubail with the college there, in the program that some people on this forum thought had been closed down. But it appears to be alive and well. I was considering applying at some point too, as the offer looks good on paper.
But then he had a look at some of the posts here and started having second thoughts. In particular, this topic from June 2013: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=102292&highlight=mcgill
Ouch. And there are some other negative posts too.
He's also read some bad things about working on a Business Visa, which his would be, and despite the fact that it was proposed as a more positive solution than a normal Work Visa, i.e. you could enter and return to the KSA as often as you wanted. But there are some people who report having problems on the financial side with the Business Visa, e.g. getting taxed, having more trouble sending the money out of the country, etc.
Accommodation seems to be a sore point too. He was told it would be a "Western style suite" apartment, fully furnished, with kitchen, etc. He asked if it would be alone or shared, but he hasn't heard from McGill on that specifically. From what people have said here, it's shared. And in some cases no more than a university dorm room.
Bit of a letdown to say the least. Anyway, the job start date has been pushed back and now appears to be around late September, for 9.5 months. It seems the job's terms and conditions are the same as in the past, re. salary, paid holidays, medical, flight, etc.
Really a surprise to see all the negatives, given McGill's reputation as a top notch university. |
I worked at McGill from 2012-2013 on their 2nd year in Jubail. I was at JIC. I haven't made any previous posts on this forum, even though I know some of my former colleagues trashed the job before.
They pay on time. There were a ton of teachers and I made a lot of friends there which I will always be grateful for. Bahrain wasn't too far away. The positives pretty much end there.
"Colonel Mustard," the name of the first poster here on McGill, is an allusion to one of the nicknames given to the Iraqi project manager (Saddam was another one). He worked as a director at JIC for years before he got his position with McGill, and based on my interactions with JIC direct hires (a mix of Saudi, other Arab, Turkish and East Asian teachers), this man is universally hated by all of his former colleagues and every single one of them only had bad things to say. Here are four quotes from JIC direct hires on the colonel which have stayed in my mind:
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| The only thing (Saddam) did at JIC before he got his McGill job was push people away and make teachers miserable. |
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| No offense to you (me), but I hope this project fails spectacularly and (Saddam) is finally run out of town for good. |
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| You know, I had always felt sorry for the Iraqis for the American invasion in 2003...then I met this man. |
Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And to be sure, our PM had nothing but scorn for every teacher on the program. Of course there were more than a few nutters among our ranks, but plenty of good teachers and several true educators that deserved better treatment.
The colonel was never really in Jubail; he mostly hid in his ivory tower in Montreal while his appointed grunts ran the show on the ground. The inner circle of coordinators was hard to break, and that's because most of them were on the program the first year (most of us came in the 2nd year) and had a condescending attitude to new teachers. These people made their homebrew and got wasted every night, meanwhile when there was an incident involving one good-natured teacher who had a bit too much to drink one evening, all of us were sat down and told to clean our acts up. The same night several of those coordinators went back to the "compound" and got shit-faced drunk on "yeast diarrhoea and farts," as our head coordinator termed his concoctions.
And the lovely compound. Yes, Jubail is a tale of two cities. The nice part by the sea is where JIC direct hires lived. We lived in the East Asian expat ghetto, surrounded by garbage and shitty Indian restaurants. The apartments were spacious, but shared. I had a great roommate. Others were paired with alkies and sociopaths. One guy had rats in his apartment. We couldn't buy our own internet routers because, oops, we were working there without iqamas, so internet was perpetually shit and skype conversations were impossible. Anybody could have walked into that complex and posed as a janitor, and in fact, there were two cases of break-ins by janitors on the top floor apartment. After living there for the first 8 months, we were abruptly told in a meeting that we were moving to JTI's residences for teachers, which were like the dormitories described above. One guy turned on his shower there one day only to see a flow of ants coming out of the faucet.
We were forced to do "professional development" workshops which were usually led by a real kook who had zero qualifications necessary to lead them and the charisma of a doorknob. These excruciating sessions were done after the workday ended, and it was clear that nobody wanted to be there. We didn't get any certificates or something else worth mentioning on a resume for this; it was done to make McGill look good in the eyes of its Saudi overlords and nothing more.
The students were blockheads in the first part of the year and then a new crop came in that were actually halfway decent and teachable. Class sizes were 24 to a class. My last 5 months in class were spectacular and the highlight of my day. Work hours were from 7am - 2:30pm, with 4 contact hours. Not too bad, but the inane paperwork we had to fill out was irritating.
Again, I made a lot of friends there which made the year worth it. I didn't complain to anyone while I worked there about anything, just went about my business and kept calm. I did mostly everything the coordinators and admin asked of me. My direct coordinator was actually a pretty good guy. However, what made things more annoying was the fact that there existed a sizable group of sycophants who were constantly gunning for openings in the coordinator's ranks (an extra $500-800 per month, don't remember exactly). These people were the worst of them all because they acted as friends to us normies just to get dirt to share with the big boys and then, if someone said anything questionable to one of these sycophants, that person would be promptly stabbed in the back and relegated to the dreaded call lab. I have no respect for those people who tried to climb the ranks at the expense of other teachers.
Anyway, the word is that Saddam has issued an edict that none of the former teachers will be invited back. I don't know if that includes coordinators or not, but I'm assuming that most won't return anyway, as most have already procured better jobs in better places. I really wonder what will happen to the program, so keep us posted if you take it. However, be warned that it isn't quite as glamorous as the name gives away.
Don't believe the hype, and don't even think of asking for any tuition discounts at the real McGill!
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neftoprestupnik
Joined: 11 Aug 2014
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: |
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One more thing I wanted to add:
When "iteach" made his "facts" post on this forum two Junes ago, many teachers on the program in Jubail were absolutely giddy to see the truth being posted on the Internet and everyone was talking about it. Not too long after it was posted, the Saudi special programs unit director at JIC (not a McGill employee and much higher up the pole than Colonel Mustard Gas) called a meeting one day with my direct coordinator and presented him with a printed out version of iteach's first "facts" post. I heard that he was holding back laughter when he showed my coordinator the paper. Word about that post traveled back to the Colonel, who tried his best to stifle the dissent before it reached his superiors in Montreal, but a teacher finally emailed the deans of the McGill SCS and Saddam finally had to explain himself to an authority figure. Not that it did anything because the program is back after being temporarily suspended. I guess McGill can't resist whoring its name out for the petrodollars.
Finally, I wanted to comment about one poster's remark about how all the teachers were babies and that this was worse than high school. In a sense, I agree that there was a ton of gossip floating around, but that culture was created at least in part by the gross lack of transparency by McGill. Also, I remember the mood when meeting many of my colleagues for the first time in the first two weeks of the program; most everyone seemed upbeat and positive in regard to the project and the contract. To be sure, many were first time gulfers as I was and thus perhaps not wise to the nuances of gulf teaching and living. Needless to say, that positive mood soured within a few months for nearly everyone. |
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jargonscott
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think neftoprestupnik did a pretty good job of covering some of the basics of the day to day life with McGill. I was there for the pilot year and it was pretty similar. That being said, it's a doable 9 month hustle if that's all you're really looking for. I learned a lot during my time in KSA and it actually opened some doors for me. I don't have decades of experience and qualifications like some folks in the EFL world, so I'm very grateful for stumbling my way into a job in the UAE that pays me twice as much as McGill did. I definitely work a lot harder here, but the increased salary, the higher quality of life, and having professional/mature/intelligent colleagues easily makes it worth it.
I miss our Wednesday night poker games and our terrible basketball team, but nothing else. I'm still so very happy to be out of the kingdom.
I think most people could deal with completing a contract with McGill, just go with very low expectations and don't try to fool yourself into thinking you'll be with them long-term. |
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ebooktrial0001
Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:23 am Post subject: Brown University has Project? |
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| I'm a Brown University alumni. They have projects in Saudi Arabia? |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Probably using the word "projects" loosely... often this seems to be little more than a short term adviser and the ability to mention their name. I've always wondered how much they are paid for this sort of thing.
VS |
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ebooktrial0001
Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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1. The other people who commented about McGill got it spot on.
I feel it was an ok job that paid well for the amount of hours. It met my needs at the time. But, it's not something that I'd boast, brag, or feel that it helped me with professional development.
2. My question was on Brown University. Are they doing any sort of consulting, advising, etc.?
I'd just be interested because maybe there are some people I know or find an interesting twist on it. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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nfig77
Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 52
Location: ITB Research Facility in Shenzhen
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by nfig77 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:09 am; edited 2 times in total |
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nfig77
Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 52
Location: ITB Research Facility in Shenzhen
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| One way to consider the business visa is that the teachers are McGill employees sent overseas to work temporarily on behalf of McGill to facilitate its business services there. They are not being paid by a local entity. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| nfig77 wrote: |
| One way to consider the business visa is that the teachers are McGill employees sent overseas to work temporarily on behalf of McGill to facilitate its business services there. They are not being paid by a local entity. |
Thanks for the clarification. A biz visit visa makes sense because that's what this visa type is designated for: employees or contractors of non-Saudi employers. This goes back to the point that job applicants need to find out who the actual employer is. But it should have been obvious to the OP's friend since his pay would have been deposited in his home bank account and not in one in Saudi Arabia. |
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