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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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Having to apply for a visa soon and not sure which one to get.
From what I can see they both look very similar. I've no prior Chinese visa so I'm probably going to be limited to single or double entry visas at the start. Both allow you to stay for 30 days, and both cost pretty much the same price.
Regarding visa extensions, from reading online it seems a 30 day extension on the tourist visa is a formality and is 99.9% always approved, but a second extension is much more unlikely.
My question is - does this '1 extension only' apply per entry, or per visa? For example if I got a 6 month double entry, could I stay 1 month, then a month extension, then go to HK and back, stay a further month on the second entry, then get it extended again? Making for a total of 4 months. Or is it 1 extension per visa?
If so, how do all those guys working on tourist or business visas up in Shanghai, Beijing, or some no name city in Western China do it then? Surely they can't be flying to HK every single month since that would represent a gigantic proportion of the average ESL'er salary wasted on flights, hotels and visa renewals.
Any decent way to get more than 30 days stay at a time if it is only 1 extension per visa? I'm planning to setup in Shenzhen so the 'visa run' for me personally wouldn't be a 'massive' cost...but it'd still be an absolute piss take.
Comments about not working illegally will be ignored, as we're all adults here and can make our own free choices. I for one, would much rather be able to check a school and an area out in person before 'committing'. Signing a contract then flying out to China to meet your employer with no real idea of what the school is like or if the area is nice to live in does in no way compensate for been 'protected' on the off-chance the PSB decide to do a raid, IMO. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| ESL104 wrote: |
Having to apply for a visa soon and not sure which one to get.
From what I can see they both look very similar. I've no prior Chinese visa so I'm probably going to be limited to single or double entry visas at the start. Both allow you to stay for 30 days, and both cost pretty much the same price.
Regarding visa extensions, from reading online it seems a 30 day extension on the tourist visa is a formality and is 99.9% always approved, but a second extension is much more unlikely.
My question is - does this '1 extension only' apply per entry, or per visa? For example if I got a 6 month double entry, could I stay 1 month, then a month extension, then go to HK and back, stay a further month on the second entry, then get it extended again? Making for a total of 4 months. Or is it 1 extension per visa?
If so, how do all those guys working on tourist or business visas up in Shanghai, Beijing, or some no name city in Western China do it then? Surely they can't be flying to HK every single month since that would represent a gigantic proportion of the average ESL'er salary wasted on flights, hotels and visa renewals.
Any decent way to get more than 30 days stay at a time if it is only 1 extension per visa? I'm planning to setup in Shenzhen so the 'visa run' for me personally wouldn't be a 'massive' cost...but it'd still be an absolute piss take.
Comments about not working illegally will be ignored, as we're all adults here and can make our own free choices. I for one, would much rather be able to check a school and an area out in person before 'committing'. Signing a contract then flying out to China to meet your employer with no real idea of what the school is like or if the area is nice to live in does in no way compensate for been 'protected' on the off-chance the PSB decide to do a raid, IMO. |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=109201
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught...  |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught... |
It would cost me over 10000RMB to fly home, fly back to China, and get the medical check/police clearance etc in the meantime.
At that point, you really might as well just take your chances because the fine is unlikely to be much more than that, and of course there's not a 100% chance they catch you doing it. Probably not even 10%.
But even if we'd agreed a 20% risk, and that the maximum 20000RMB fine would be imposed, that equates to an expected loss of 0.2*200000 = 4000RMB.
Whereas flying home, flying back again, and doing all the correct documents is an expected loss of 10000RMB, at least. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught... |
Whereas flying home, flying back again, and doing all the correct documents is an expected loss of 10000RMB, at least. |
How about some time in a Chinese jail? How much is that worth? |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught... |
It would cost me over 10000RMB to fly home, fly back to China, and get the medical check/police clearance etc in the meantime.
At that point, you really might as well just take your chances because the fine is unlikely to be much more than that, and of course there's not a 100% chance they catch you doing it. Probably not even 10%.
But even if we'd agreed a 20% risk, and that the maximum 20000RMB fine would be imposed, that equates to an expected loss of 0.2*200000 = 4000RMB.
Whereas flying home, flying back again, and doing all the correct documents is an expected loss of 10000RMB, at least. |
But if the 20 percent risk comes up you could be paying a fine AND flying home.
Your reluctance to come on a Z seems to be based on your desire to inspect the school first. Due diligence can deal with most of the risk especially if that includes talking to current or recent teachers.
Despite a recommendation from an FT my first school was a total disaster. I walked after one semester but because I was on the Z visa, I had options. In fact I walked into 3 nearby public schools and got offers from 2. Apart from the obvious advantages (looks and personality) the new school could eyeball me and use my existing Z to get me onto their payroll.
For the public sector the next start date is in Feb, so you have loads of time to make enquiries about a prospective employer. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught... |
It would cost me over 10000RMB to fly home, fly back to China, and get the medical check/police clearance etc in the meantime.
At that point, you really might as well just take your chances because the fine is unlikely to be much more than that, and of course there's not a 100% chance they catch you doing it. Probably not even 10%.
But even if we'd agreed a 20% risk, and that the maximum 20000RMB fine would be imposed, that equates to an expected loss of 0.2*200000 = 4000RMB.
Whereas flying home, flying back again, and doing all the correct documents is an expected loss of 10000RMB, at least. |
I say "Go for it!" You've got it all figured out. When you're sitting in jail, you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that you did all the proper calculations (ahem) to figure the odds, and really should have beat the odds.
"...But even if we'd agreed a 20% risk, and that the maximum 20000RMB fine would be imposed, that equates to an expected loss of 0.2*200000 = 4000RMB..."
That is absolutely brilliant. Go for it, man. |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:34 am Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught... |
Whereas flying home, flying back again, and doing all the correct documents is an expected loss of 10000RMB, at least. |
How about some time in a Chinese jail? How much is that worth? |
You're looking at the absolute worse case scenario i.e. getting caught (unlikely), been hit with the MAXIMUM fine (unlikely), deportation (not sure how likely, but it's fair to say not everyone caught gets deported), time in a Chinese jail (again, not sure of the numbers, but not everyone caught gets jail time).
In reality the 'penalty' would probably be something like a 10000RMB fine and a 10 day 'get out' note, although been able to leave the country on your own free will during that time. And given what it'd cost me to go home (in the case of Shenzhen you need to get the Z from your home country, which for me is on the other side of the frickin world)...
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Anyway I'm still confused about the answer to my question. The tourist and business visas grant a 30 day stay in the country. You can get multiple entry versions of these but it's still only 30 days stay per time. Is everyone working without a Z visa in Shanghai making a flight to HK every month or something?  Or is there a way to get more than 30 days per time that I'm just not seeing? |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught... |
Whereas flying home, flying back again, and doing all the correct documents is an expected loss of 10000RMB, at least. |
How about some time in a Chinese jail? How much is that worth? |
You're looking at the absolute worse case scenario i.e. getting caught (unlikely), been hit with the MAXIMUM fine (unlikely), deportation (not sure how likely, but it's fair to say not everyone caught gets deported), time in a Chinese jail (again, not sure of the numbers, but not everyone caught gets jail time).
In reality the 'penalty' would probably be something like a 10000RMB fine and a 10 day 'get out' note, although been able to leave the country on your own free will during that time. And given what it'd cost me to go home (in the case of Shenzhen you need to get the Z from your home country, which for me is on the other side of the frickin world)...
------------
Anyway I'm still confused about the answer to my question. The tourist and business visas grant a 30 day stay in the country. You can get multiple entry versions of these but it's still only 30 days stay per time. Is everyone working without a Z visa in Shanghai making a flight to HK every month or something? Or is there a way to get more than 30 days per time that I'm just not seeing? |
I can't help you but I am concerned that you are going further and further down a blind alley.
Even if you do start with a couple of good trips to HK to renew an L, what happens when/if that avenue closes.
As mentioned on another thread, the March start hiring season is just getting underway. Get an offer, do due diligence including speaking to current or recent teachers and get a Z. |
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likwid_777
Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if the following has been said already. I would like to point out that you might not get jail time. To be honest, I doubt you would go to jail. But what you are likely to get is a lengthy ban from visiting China again. The typical bans I've read about more recently are from three to five years. I got caught working on an F visa in 2010. I have not yet tried to return, but if there was a decision to ban me for five years, I will still have a year to go before I can return. To be honest, I think that I would be okay to return now. But it's food for thought.
Don't forget that horrible little feeling hanging over your head, when you finally realise that your employer is full of BS, and is never going to get you a Z-visa. But I guess you won't have that feeling, you aren't sweet and naive like I was... Haha. You are basically crunching the odds like a hardcore gambler haha. When I get my degree done soon, I'll probably try to go back. I'm sure it will be fine. I'm a little worried about it though. "You want what you can't have." Don't forget the scene where you're leaving your girlfriend in the apartment which you shared, as she bawls her eyes out. I never saw her again. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| likwid_777 wrote: |
I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if the following has been said already. I would like to point out that you might not get jail time. To be honest, I doubt you would go to jail. But what you are likely to get is a lengthy ban from visiting China again. The typical bans I've read about more recently are from three to five years. I got caught working on an F visa in 2010. I have not yet tried to return, but if there was a decision to ban me for five years, I will still have a year to go before I can return. To be honest, I think that I would be okay to return now. But it's food for thought.
Don't forget that horrible little feeling hanging over your head, when you finally realise that your employer is full of BS, and is never going to get you a Z-visa. But I guess you won't have that feeling, you aren't sweet and naive like I was... Haha. You are basically crunching the odds like a hardcore gambler haha. When I get my degree done soon, I'll probably try to go back. I'm sure it will be fine. I'm a little worried about it though. "You want what you can't have." Don't forget the scene where you're leaving your girlfriend in the apartment which you shared, as she bawls her eyes out. I never saw her again. |
Thank you for that L777. Nice post. |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: Re: L and F visa extensions? Which one to get? |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| ESL104 wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
There is a major crackdown underway in China. Now is NOT the time to go to China and work with ANYTHING othar than the proper Z-visa, WP etc. But hey, you're a grown-up, so please do post about what happens after you get caught... |
Whereas flying home, flying back again, and doing all the correct documents is an expected loss of 10000RMB, at least. |
How about some time in a Chinese jail? How much is that worth? |
You're looking at the absolute worse case scenario i.e. getting caught (unlikely), been hit with the MAXIMUM fine (unlikely), deportation (not sure how likely, but it's fair to say not everyone caught gets deported), time in a Chinese jail (again, not sure of the numbers, but not everyone caught gets jail time).
In reality the 'penalty' would probably be something like a 10000RMB fine and a 10 day 'get out' note, although been able to leave the country on your own free will during that time. And given what it'd cost me to go home (in the case of Shenzhen you need to get the Z from your home country, which for me is on the other side of the frickin world)...
------------
Anyway I'm still confused about the answer to my question. The tourist and business visas grant a 30 day stay in the country. You can get multiple entry versions of these but it's still only 30 days stay per time. Is everyone working without a Z visa in Shanghai making a flight to HK every month or something? Or is there a way to get more than 30 days per time that I'm just not seeing? |
I can't help you but I am concerned that you are going further and further down a blind alley.
Even if you do start with a couple of good trips to HK to renew an L, what happens when/if that avenue closes.
As mentioned on another thread, the March start hiring season is just getting underway. Get an offer, do due diligence including speaking to current or recent teachers and get a Z. |
Surely I'd still have to fly home to get the Z though either way? Which is the real issue here...flights and hotel costs in the UK are no small amount and could well eclipse any PSB fine.
Besides the 'requirement' to fly home to get a bit of paper is absolutely ridiculous. There's no good reason for it except to piss off the foreigner. There's no similar law in any other country.
Anyone had any luck just sending their passport home to a friend, have them send in the passport to the consulate instead, then mail it back out? No way am I spending 10000 on flights plus god knows what on a hotel or sleeping on a friends sofa just so I can get a piece of paper in my passport.
Likewid_777 - did they stamp your passport with a 'don't bother coming back anytime soon' type message?
In your case, even if they did...would it not be possible just to get a new passport (and maybe change your name), if been present in China is so important? No way could they know you're the same person with a new passport number and a different surname, surely?
Might sound a bit drastic but neither changing your name nor getting a new passport is particularly difficult or costly, and in your case it sounds like you had ties to China?
I've got no ties to China tho, no plans to pick up a Chinese girlfriend either, so if the PSB caught me it'd just be meh, thanks for playing. Just find a new country, lol.
Still would like to know how those people in west china or shanghai etc do it though. Surely they're not flying to HK each month? |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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OP,
You sound like one of those special cases. Laws don't apply to you, and even if they did, you could always game the system to your advantage. China needs more people like you. You show initiative, and you have leadership qualities which are in short supply.
If you get caught, you say you can always change your name and get a new passport. Brilliant! Who would have thought of that. It's a simple process.
May I suggest a new name for you? How about Louie DeTroll? |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
OP,
You sound like one of those special cases. Laws don't apply to you, and even if they did, you could always game the system to your advantage. China needs more people like you. You show initiative, and you have leadership qualities which are in short supply.
If you get caught, you say you can always change your name and get a new passport. Brilliant! Who would have thought of that. It's a simple process.
May I suggest a new name for you? How about Louie DeTroll? |
Lol are you still upset over that thread where i said no one should be working their ass off for a uni job?
Laws don't apply when the punishment is lighter than the costs of following the regulations, no.
And if I had a Chinese gf, or had other ties to China...I wouldn't hesitate before getting a new passport if getting back in was that important.
Some of you act like not spending thousands to get the proper visa is akin to trying to smuggle 20 kilos of heroin across the border or something. Like it's the worse thing anyone can do.
Tell me - if flights back home and then another flight to China will cost 9000rmb, 2 weeks in the UK will cost me another 10000rmb, plus there's the 10000rmb opportunity cost of not working for a month...why exactly should I care about the Z visa when the fine is 'only' 20k max and chances are you won't be caught anyway? And those are all pretty conservative figures.
Just do the maths. |
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BleedingBlue
Joined: 22 Oct 2014
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Listen to nobody here. Read the simply put immigration rules. I Do really believe you should not be here at all if you can't understand these basic "criminal"acts.
On this end --- failure waiting to happen. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Don't the casino operators in Los Vegas say:
'We welcome all gamblers, but we will send a car to collect ones who think they have a system'. |
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