Job Discussion Forums

[Bud Powell]

[Hauraunah]

She responded to me today. I'm going to research what wage is comparable to $2000+ USD in China. I'm willing to compromise with her. I would prefer to have my accommodation paid for with me responsible for utilities if it mean taking a small pay cut because with the way I usually live most of my money goes towards food and rent. If I have extra cash to play with I do. If not I save what little I do have. I notice that extra money to play with is only necessary for me if my work environment is toxic. That's how I lasted through my last job.

She keeps making my lack of experience a big deal but quite frankly I don't want to hear it as China was marketed to me as a plethora of opportunities that I could not get in Korea. I know this is not true but I want them to put their money where their mouth is.

If they could find NOTHING in Korea for me but so much in China in comparison, I want to see what they've got and 3 job offers where two are known toxic environments isn't going to cut it. I'm desperate, but if I have to stay in America for an extra year and brush up on my Korean/Japanese/Spanish skills and try to pick up Chinese while I volunteer to tutor then I will before I just go jumping into anything.

[Bud Powell]

"...She keeps making my lack of experience a big deal but quite frankly I don't want to hear it as [b]China was marketed to me as a plethora of opportunities that I could not get in Korea. I know this is not true but I want them to put their money where their mouth is..."[/b]

So you bought the dream, huh? What happened to the American Dream? The streets are paved with gold there. It's such a persistent misconception that people lose their lives crossing the southern border to get there.

Your lack of experience IS a big deal. Before you walk into a class room, you should know what you are doing. That's called education. You wouldn't want to be taught by an uneducated teacher who learns at your expense, would you?

You want them to "put their money where their mouth is." Who are you talking about? Recruiters? They've already told you no. They certainly didn't market China to you as the Land of Milk and Honey for the Inexperienced. More and more employers want EXPERIENCED teachers.
Having just a white face is no longer the minimum requirement in many provinces and cities in China.

If you want to be paid while you learn and gain experience, try working in the western regions where it is difficult for schools to hire foreign teachers. In some places, they'll hire the blind, the crippled, and the crazy, but not for the price that you seek.

Good luck.

[Shanghai Noon]

I can't speak for other provinces, but 10-12,000 per month plus accommodation is standard for first year in Shanghai, and there is no experience requirement. The only catch is that you can't get a Z visa from Hong Kong to work in Shanghai if it is your first time working in China.

I still think your best bet is to teach both English and Japanese. Someone posted a list of schools with FEC licenses a couple of weeks ago. I noticed some Japanese schools in there. Maybe you can send them a resume and see if they need English teachers.

[Hauraunah]

Bud Powell

No, I can honestly say I didn't buy the dream. I'm just calling their bluff so to speak. Don't make Korea seem like it's standards are impossible to meet and portray China in the palm of my hand only to present me with jobs that would leave me at quite a disadvantage if I were to take the worst Eikaiwa or Hagwon gig.

As for the American dream I believe it is attainable if you are not an American. If you are a foreigner looking to open an business America is definitely the place to go. I see so many foreigners of all backgrounds do amazing for themselves merely because they speak a money making languages. If you speak fluent Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Spanish you're pretty much set if you can get a gig with your people here. If you're also fluent in English then you can almost name your price depending on the industry. My last job was an example of that. The only good thing about it was the crazy amazing pay, holiday pay, over-time, over-over time, company perks, personal commission, store commission, etc. Too bad the environment was s0o0o0o0o0o toxic it threw all that out of the window and it didn't matter. I only lucked into that job because I was multi-lingual , female, and a minority. If I was Asian I could just waltz up in there and land that same job without the college background putting me there. Do I speak Chinese? Check and hired. So I do believe the American dream is still alive, it's just doesn't smile too kindly on it's own citizens.


I do agree that my lack of experience is important. But they advertised it as differently and are wasting my time back-peddling. I don't think I'm special and deserve more than the next guy but I also didn't come to them for China jobs. I'm a practical person and realize that my first year teaching abroad might not be in the country I necessarily desired so I am open to what China may have especially if it's a slightly better deal than what I can get from Korea and Japan. I respect that they are a business and they and doing what they can to get their checks but I also have to protect myself because I'm potentially walking into a lions den. I just want to make sure it's a least a furnished den with some perks. And from what I've been hearing, the reason why schools are able to low-ball is because of new teachers in my position signing the first contract they are shown.

Western regions of China? Why does no one wish to work there? Is it a rural/urban type of thing? I personally don't mind living in the country side if it means lower-cost of living. If the place gives me easy access to a large city then even better.

Thank you


Shanghai Noon

Thank you. I'll look into it. It would be nice to meet some people in China who spoke Japanese or Korean. I wouldn't feel too isolated.

[Bud Powell]

"...I do agree that my lack of experience is important. But they advertised it as differently and are wasting my time back-peddling..."

Who is "they"? If you mean the recruiter, then perhaps there's something that the recruiter doesn't like about you. Job history, perhaps? Type of job? They're not wasting your time. YOU'RE wasting your time. Move on. Find another recruiter. If you find that you can't negotiate with a recruiter, the recruiter probably doesn't have room to negotiate.



"...I don't think I'm special and deserve more than the next guy but I also didn't come to them for China jobs..."

Wait.

You were minding your own business working another job and weren't even considering working abroad, and someone knocked your door down and said, "COME TO CHINA WHERE IT RAINS MANNA, AND THE RIVERS FLOW MILK AND HONEY!" And you quit your job and applied to a job offered by a recruiter. Do I have it right?

Well, GolDang. You need to join the CFTU.

"...Western regions of China? Why does no one wish to work there? Is it a rural/urban type of thing? I personally don't mind living in the country side if it means lower-cost of living..."

Have you done ANY homework? For your own good, I suggest that you read the past forum topics to get a good handle on what is to be found in different parts of China, and why some areas pay more than others.

You haven't done your basic homework which consists of looking at a map of china and studying its terrain. You also need to do some research to understand what is happening in the country.

My intention is not to be mean or insulting. Too many people hop on a plane not knowing what they are getting into. Then, when they're hit with all sorts of surprises, they begin raising cane with everyone, including people in the various forums.

I researched China before I arrived. I read business articles; political columns; ESL teacher forums; LOTS of job postings all over the internet. I sent my resume and scans of my passport to dozens of recruiters and spoke to them over the phone to get a feel for how the recruiters do business. I compared my experiences with recruiters to the experiences of people who came to China. I learned what to be careful of, and what to avoid.

It sounds to me that you bought the dream before you read the back of the box and the list of ingredients.

Do some more homework. Then you can make the move with informed confidence.

Don't take the advice of people who tell you to make the recruiter work for you. It doesn't work that way. No recruiter who has a working relationship with several schools will risk his reputation by recommending someone who is pushy and who may be a problem. There are, however, unscrupulous recruiters who have a knack for finding schools that are desperate for teachers and for finding job seekers that are even more desperate. You need to learn how to read the recruiter, read the contracts for weasel words, and learn why some schools can't keep teachers.

I'm not saying that you are necessarily a potential problem, but your inexperience in dealing with recruiters may be hampering your job search.

Your lack of experience and lack of credentials aren't helping either. If recruiters are making a big deal of your education and lack of experience, it might be time for you to do something about it.

[roadwalker]

OP it sounds like you got the old fashioned bait-and-switch. This particular recruiter probably is trying to move you to where there is a bigger commission for them. I don't have any experience in Japan or Korea, but I'm under the impression that they look for young, fresh faced (and preferably blond and blue-eyed) teachers. Beginning pay is usually better than China, but there are more hassles, particularly in Japan, in getting set up to live. Find a different recruiter(s) and/or apply to schools directly. The better opportunities in China will definitely require two years' teaching experience, and probably some type of TEFL certification as well.

If you really want to begin in China, bear in mind that you may have trouble with the PSB (Public Security Bureau aka 'Gong An') if you end up working while under anything but a work visa, despite whatever you are promised. The western provinces include almost anything that isn't on the coast, or Beijing. Transportation is generally excellent throughout China, so living in a smaller (by Chinese standards) city is usually convenient. (There are real isolated places as well but also with fewer teaching opportunities.) Many places you have never heard of have an English Wikipedia entry, and some have a Wikitravel entry as well. Use those and other sites to research where schools are located and what the local transportation system is like.

Korean restaurants are in many cities, especially on the coast and in Beijing but also inland. Korean communities, including ethnic-Korean Chinese communities can be found in Liaoning, Shandong, and Shanghai, among other places. Japanese restaurants are also popular throughout China, (though everyone 'hates' the Japanese when prompted) and universities usually offer Japanese language instruction when there is another foreign language taught besides English. Good luck.

[Hauraunah]

Bud Powell

No. The first recruiter was working with me to get into EPIK. After EPIK informed them I didn't make it to an interview he offered to transfer me over to someone who could introduce me to some "great jobs" in China. I didn't quit my job here. I will say that I was a whistle blower. I blew that whistle hard enough that the company decided to say they were under construction and no longer offered my position. This way they could fire only me and not the people who were hired after me. A month before this happened I had already started the motions to getting my paperwork together so I could leave to teach abroad.

Quite honestly I've been doing my homework to the best of my ability. First and foremost I'm trying to make sure I don't stumble into a trap. This entire moving to China thing is new for me. Most of my knowledge is about Korea and Japan and I feel like I'm forcing myself to take baby steps so my brain doesn't explode from stuffing it with new info. I looked up a lot of cities in China so see which ones would be suited to me weather/season-wise. I've been trying to find a website that can give me an accurate account on the cost of living in certain areas there but that's been difficult. I haven't been sitting here twiddling my thumbs I can assure you, but with two interviews lined up for Japan jobs I'm a little stretched all over. I don't even know where to start looking for China. All I've been able to do is research known scammers and schools with horrible reputations. I'm trying to read everyone's comments on the work visa and that's a lot to take in as well. I do know that the Z visa is not like the Japanese visa. If you pay for it to get it yourself you're responsible if anything happens. If your job pays for it they own it. That's not that case in Japan.

tl;dr I'm stilling the motions of figuring out what I should be trying to figure out vs. what isn't really important. I can promise you I'm asking merely because a closed mouth doesn't get fed in this case. I'm sorry if I presented myself as expecting everyone here to spoon feed me. I do appreciate everyone's insight here including yours and what little information you guys have given me has been greatly helpful. But it's going to take me a while before I become as knowledgeable about China as I've spent becoming knowledgeable about Korean/Japan.


roadwalker

Thank you so much for your advice. I'm going to try and find a way to get a hold of these school names. Doesn't usually applying to them directly require that I have my resume in Chinese?

[Bud Powell]

Hauraunah,

I apologize if I come across as a p-rick. So many people come to Dave's totally clueless and won't accept the fact that there a lot of things to know.

Stay. Ask questions.

[Shanghai Noon]

[roadwalker]

[weigookin74]

[isitts]

Short answer, of the three schools, I'd chose EF, kind of by default as someone else ruled out the first one, and Kid Castle has crazy hours (if that's 30-35 teaching hours).

In reading your posts, it's seeming to me that you're kind of being your own worst enemy in your search. Between what you've written on this thread and on the Japan forums, you come across as a bit confrontational (or at least overly on your guard). While it's not necessarily bad to be on your guard when dealing with recruiters or looking into teaching overseas, it can be overdone.

You've gotten some pretty good advice on this thread and the two I saw you write on the Japan forums. Bud Powell's advice may seem a bit direct, but he's spot on.

A few things that may be helpful to understand as you approach this..

1. It's an employers market right now. Has been for a while now. So you really can't be too demanding with what you're looking for.

2. Recruiters (as has been said) work for the schools, not you. You are not their customer. Going in with that understanding should probably change the expectations you've been having of them. You don't need to be overly suspicious of them, but it is important to know that ultimately, they're looking out for the schools' interest and their own.

That said, you can still tell them what you're looking for and it is in their interest to work with you to some degree as you could give them repeat business when you change schools in the future. So, in that respect, it's not cut and dry as to who they work for. But the school is who pays them.

3. Kind of related to the first point, you don't have teaching experience and you are competing (now more than in years past) with people that do. You are not going to walk in at the top floor. If you are that hard up for a job, then you may consider trying to get fed precisely by keeping your mouth closed and taking one of these jobs offered.

Not saying to take the first crap job thrown at you. And others here have been pretty good about guiding your decision. But out of the ones you've mentioned on your threads so far, you can start to see which one might look the best and start with that one.

Again, good luck!