Job Discussion Forums

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Yes, that is basically true. But it is not a common term in use for English grammar. Many differing reasons for that, but they seem to boil down to pluperfect being a full-on tense in other languages while past perfect is an aspect.

Might as well start using terminology like aorist tense or passé composè for all the relevance that has to English grammar.

Hic!

With Communist greetings

Sasha

[esl_prof]

[esl_prof]

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

I suppose that if one is teaching graduate-level linguistics, saying that there are only two tenses is quite accurate.

Most of us, however, don't have that job description, so, for classroom, I tend to agree with this:

"How many tenses in English? The answer all depends upon whom you ask and what meaning you attach to the grammatical term tense.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines grammatical tense as “any one of the different forms or modifications (or word groups) in the conjugation of a verb which indicate the different times (past, present, or future) at which the action or state denoted by it is viewed as happening or existing.”

Most ESL sites set the number of English tenses at twelve. One site I found adds a thirteenth tense to accommodate the way we express the future with going and an infinitive: I’m going to paint the garage in the morning.

In the realm of linguistics, English has only two tenses: present and past because according to linguistics terminology, a tense is indicated by a distinctive verb form. “I sing” is in the present tense because the idea of present time is expressed in the single form sing.

For what I do, such distinctions seem unnecessarily confusing. I do not write for grammarians or students of linguistics; I don’t have the training or knowledge to do so. My focus is basic English usage. From my point of view, English has three main tenses: present, past, and future. Each of these main tenses has sub-tenses. Here are the twelve English tenses as conventionally taught:"

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/how-many-tenses-in-english/

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Agree or disagree - makes no difference. Endless debate ensues.

But if somebody is going to use a term like pluperfect, then they should know a little bit more about grammar than to say 'English has twelve tenses'.


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[Sashadroogie]

Plus 'I sing' is not encoding an idea of present time. In fact, time is totally irrelevant in this example - because it connotes a fact that is true for ALL time in the speaker's mind.

Really need to look up some more interesting linguistics sources : )

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Who is the "somebody" that you were referring to when you wrote "If somebody is going to use a term like pluperfect . . . .?"

" . . . more interesting linguistic sources. Is the "more" in that quote modifying "interesting" or "sources?"

If the first, my reference wasn't a "linguisitc source." If the second, well, in my opinion, "interesting linguisitc sources" is an oxymoron. :D

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

Somebody wasn't you, but the poor lost souls whose tests and online comments have surfaced on this thread.

As for 'more', you know very well what was meant, you cheeky devil. No need for a deep and insightful knowledge of pragmatics to negotiate meaning from context here.

If you weren't posting that extended comment to support your ideas about the number of tenses in English - i.e. quoting from a 'linguistic' source - what was the purpose of posting it? To show that many people involved in ESL do not actually know much about linguistics? Or even basic English grammar?


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Seriously, I think that telling most ESL/EFL students that there are only two tenses in English could be asking for trouble when so many texts and sites use the word "tense" to talk about the future and the perfect aspects.

I suspect introducing the term "aspect" into most of our classrooms would confuse more than clarify.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

You may be right. But teachers at least should be aware of these distinctions.

In any case, I do present the two tense model to learners, and it solves many, many problems. For starters it helps learners understand the underlying principles that give logical unity to things like reported speech, conditionals. Terms like aspect can be daunting, it's true. But what about 'temporal modification'? Still abstract, but Russian learners have no real issues with it. Hic!

With Communist greetings

Sasha

[grahamb]

Twelve tenses? Are you sure you're not from Texas, John?

I also teach students the two-tense model. After all, two tenses good, twelve tenses bad (With apologies to Orwell). See Meaning and the English Verb by Geoffrey Leech for a clear, concise explanation. Of all the EFL books I've bought over the years, it's been the most useful.

[johnslat]

Dear grahamb,

Do you ever encounter any confusion among your students when sp many texts and websites refer to the future and the perfect aspects as "tenses?"

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

in my experience, at least, any confusion seems to be more about teacher-induced error...


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Would it be safe to assume that you are speaking more from observations than from personal experience?

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

A fair comment : )

I noticed this as an observing dos and from having to take over lesser mortals' classes.


With Communist greetings

Sasha