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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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 Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Hey Scrabble, please more info on that case where the Chinese court forced a company to pay some foreigners a $150,000 settlement after the company forced them to hand out flyers?
You know, plaintiff, defendant, court, city/province, case number ...
I am quite interested.
Thanks in advance.
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:53 am Post subject: |
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You need to go with a Chinese speaker to the Haidian courthouse. The case was against a private school that claimed to be an "affiliate" of BFSU and the lead teacher's name was Cole, who had also sued another school in South China and won a few bucks there as well. If you know Kodi, he was a colleague and friend of Kodi's. Cole's lawyer was a former judge named "Guo" and it was all great gossip about 18 months ago. The issues of the law suit was having to make false statements as teachers for the school to parents and promoting the false affiliation to BFSU, and having to pass out flyers on a street corner which was never mentioned in the written job description.
My guess Cole has probably been blacklisted and will never teach another day in China. But with that extra green in his pockets now maybe he will start up a new business of his own. |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:13 am Post subject: Regarding Employee Rights of China Expat Foreign Teachers... |
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I just found two very interesting things about the employee rights of "expat professionals" (including teachers with FECs) working in China. One is a big plus for us and the other a big minus...
The bad news:
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2012-07/06/content_25833368.htm
No Z Visa = Zero Rights
The good news:
http://www.law360.com/articles/134751/employing-expats-pitfalls-to-avoid
Plaintiff Has Choice Of Jurisdiction
This good news above means that if you work for either an international school like Disney, EF, Kaplan, etc. OR you work for a Chinese employer who has a business license abroad, you have your choice where to sue them -in China or back home where you can get much better "justice" and a much larger settlement and "punitive damages" - assuming of course you had real grounds for a claim.
So if EF makes you put on a Xi Yang Yang outfit and sends you out to recruit kids in a mall handing out flyers, and you did not agree to this "extra curricular" or "marketing" or "promotional" activity in your contract, you file your claim back in America for a $100K settlement or perhaps earn a 50,000 yuan judgement in China which you never collect because your visa expires and for reasons unknown it is not renewed!
Last edited by Scrabble King on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:50 am Post subject: |
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When are you going to tell us something NEW!!!
Or is it your intention to just keep regurgitating the same old, same old .......
most of which is well-known anyway. |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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You think the employer will toss you $100,000 cuz you had to hand out flyers?
From a legal perspective, these legal claims are hilarious. Just sayin. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Regarding Employee Rights of China Expat Foreign Teacher |
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| Scrabble King wrote: |
So if EF makes you put on a Xi Yang Yang outfit and sends you out to recruit kids in a mall handy out flyers... |
Where did you learn English? |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Regarding Employee Rights of China Expat Foreign Teacher |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
| Scrabble King wrote: |
So if EF makes you put on a Xi Yang Yang outfit and sends you out to recruit kids in a mall handy out flyers... |
Where did you learn English? |
Instead of hunting for typos of other users, can you contribute something meaningful about the OP topic that we finally have some decent rights in China as employees? |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| roadwalker wrote: |
By definition, an illegal contract is void. Why would Chinese law state that a contract is illegal, but hey, if you sign it, it's ok and enforceable?
More anti-scam scam spam, ma'am. |
Good point IF the teacher is able to spot an illegal contract in the first place right? I would guess that most teachers, especially first timers sign whatever is put in front of them. |
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drjtrekker
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:44 am Post subject: |
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@scrabble king,
UGH. ur a very unrealistic human being.
U and the MISSIONARY.
No one is making the laowai stay in this country. If one is unhappy about the laws, our rights, etc...GO HOME. It's not our country, your country, or a western country, you ethnocentric boys... |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| drjtrekker wrote: |
@scrabble king,
UGH. ur a very unrealistic human being.
U and the MISSIONARY.
No one is making the laowai stay in this country. If one is unhappy about the laws, our rights, etc...GO HOME. It's not our country, your country, or a western country, you ethnocentric boys... |
Seriously... think back to when you first arrived in China. Like most everyone else you also could not possibly know if a Chinese employment contract was legal or not unless you majored in Chinese law. For example, just omitting a single clause from a three page contract makes it illegal. Maybe you should go to HR seminar in China and ask someone to explain it all to you so you can be more "realistic" and more importantly - informed. |
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Banner41
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| I did know because I am not stupid. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I did know because I am not stupid |
Actually, if posters are not "front'n" they would admit that there is a lot of info that the new guy doesn't know. Actually that is what gave me an advantage as to getting the better jobs and situations in China.
| Quote: |
By definition, an illegal contract is void.
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Mistake to apply contractual legal western centric logic to Chin's Litigation/tax law.
For example: a foreign owned business paid out tax on invoices given with a 90 day turn around, tax law states it has to be paid upon invoice. The money was never transferred to the foreign business and the whole process ended up in a pre-court hearing and after consulting three law firms (the best foreign owned one in China) the suit was considered too difficult as a % of the work had been done and a % of the money had been paid, just not the complete amount as stated in the contract. It was decided that more money had been paid than work had been done and due to the fact that the agreement was shut down had bearing on the contract signed. Now the tax office stated pre-paid tax payment funds could not be returned but a credit for the taxes could be applied to this years earnings, however the Foreign owned business was not generating cash so it had to cease operation and thus the owner lost 600,000.00 RMB in revenue as they will never use the tax credit.
| Quote: |
No one is making the laowai stay in this country. If one is unhappy about the laws, our rights, etc...GO HOME. It's not our country, your country, or a western country, you ethnocentric boys... |
Really, this is your real feelings as to people who go to a foreign country to work. Is the issue of being happy or not, related to illegal practice in the workplace? I having a feeling I have a stake in this country and I would expect this from a Chinese person luring round on a site like this but from a foreigner, never would I have expected for one to post to just bend over and take it. Perhaps I have an over expectation of the character of individuals who brave a frontier to work and provide for themselves and their families. I have no idea as to S.K. intentions, nor do I care, but when I see this kind of "love it leave it" attitude It reminds me of a time in the U.S. when rights were trampled in the name of patriotism and nationalist retaliation for those who sought a better existence. Where ever I plant my feet is my country and I would applaud those that at least try and find better understandings as to a good and honest (most of the time) intention to live and work in China accepting the challenges that present themselves without seeking to marginalize those who seek a new beginning in a foreign country.
Last edited by asiannationmc on Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I did know because I am not stupid |
Actually, if posters are not "front'n" they would admit that there is a lot of info that the new guy doesn't know. Actually that is what gave me an advantage as to getting the better jobs and situations in China.
| Quote: |
By definition, an illegal contract is void.
|
Mistake to apply contractual legal western centric logic to Chin's Litigation/tax law.
For example: a foreign owned business paid out tax on invoices given with a 90 day turn around, tax law states it has to be paid upon invoice. The money was never transferred to the foreign business and the whole process ended up in a pre-court hearing and after consulting three law firms (the best foreign owned one in China) the suit was considered too difficult as a % of the work had been done and a % of the money had been paid, just not the complete amount as stated in the contract. It was decided that more money had been paid than work had been done and due to the fact that the agreement was shut down had bearing on the contract signed. Now the tax office stated pre-paid tax payment funds could not be returned but a credit for the taxes could be applied to this years earnings, however the Foreign owned business was not generating cash so it had to cease operation and thus the owner lost 600,000.00 RMB in revenue as they will never use the tax credit.
| Quote: |
No one is making the laowai stay in this country. If one is unhappy about the laws, our rights, etc...GO HOME. It's not our country, your country, or a western country, you ethnocentric boys... |
Really, this is your real feelings as to people who go to a foreign country to work. Is the issue of being happy or not, related to illegal practice in the workplace? I having a feeling I have a stake in this country and I would expect this from a Chinese person luring round on a site like this but from a foreigner, never would I have expected for one to post to just bend over and take it. Perhaps I have an over expectation of the character of individuals who brave a frontier to work and provide for themselves and their families. I have no idea as to S.K. intentions, nor do I care, but when I see this kind of "love it leave it" attitude It reminds me of a time in the U.S. when rights were trampled in the name of patriotism and nationalist retaliation for those who sought a better existence. Where ever I plant my feet is my country and I would applaud those that at least try and find better understandings as to a good and honest (most of the time) intention to live and work in China without accepting the challenges that present themselves without seeking to marginalize those who seek a new beginning in a foreign country. |
Very well said. I never expected China to adapt to me. I knew I would have to adjust in a major way to survive here. But I will never allow myself to be passively screwed over and use "face" to my advantage when some local tries to exploit me. Sure, once I move on I am just a bad memory for them, but they may think twice when they choose their next mark. If enough of us exposed their BS on the spot, they may find a different way to earn a living - even if it is just another scam.
Did you ever notice that they brag about ripping off a foreigner but they are ashamed if they get caught cheating a fellow Chinese? This is the reality of China and I accept it, or I would have been gone long ago. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Did you ever notice that they brag about ripping off a foreigner but they are ashamed if they get caught cheating a fellow Chinese? |
Actually I think it is considered cleaver if you can fool people, and standard mug when caught is smiles, embarrassed but smiles at having been caught and then a back handed complement, your very cleaver or your a hard man. I think they are equal opportunity cheaters, no creed color or nationality will intervene, for the love of Pete, many will rip off their own family or business partner.
The greatest "zing" I ever saw was a Chinese vendor tried to cheat a foreigner (who spoke good Chinese) over the sale of some fruit priced per kilo. The foreigner loudly proclaimed to the crowd around that this vendor must have a bad family life and needed money really bad if he was trying to cheat with such a bad lie and proceeded to give him (loudly) one hundred rmb for less than a kilo of fruit, stating that if the vendor needed to cheat, he (the foreigner) would give him extra money so his family would be taken care of. With the crowd surrounding the vendor it was apparent he was severely embarrassed and tried to sluff-off (slough off for you "RAT") the inflated price. The foreigner would not let it go and instead insisted thereby bringing in a bigger audience. |
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drjtrekker
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Oh, the tag team a cometh.
First of all guys, Scrabble and Asian MC, I do appreciate the information about work, jobs, etc.
This was the site I came to when I contemplated leaving my cush job in the states and going on an ESL adventure some years ago.
This is partly why I like to throw in my opinion from time to time.
I also do not like being taken advantage of, and I often stand up for myself and unfortunately am confrontational...basically I don't take shit, even if I act like a fool, which i do.
I also agree that the information is very useful for a newbie.
BUT, my main point and argument is that it's NOT PRAGMATIC.
Your views, your ideas, are not pragmatic.
These ideas of a FT union, Black list, our RIGHTS, etc....are a waste of time.
It's not that I disagree with the LEGAL issues or the Chinese Law,
but as any veteran of Chiner knows...The laws are only of use when those that have the power want to use them.
My Chinese wife, my Chinese family, and my Chinese friends ALL agree with this thinking. Perhaps I run in the wrong circles, eh?
They are not lawyers or HR, ....ha..........ha.
SK said,
| Quote: |
If enough of us exposed their BS on the spot, they may find a different way to earn a living
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NOPE, not gonna happen. I don't even want to waste my energy explaining why. If you guys don't have the judgement/discernment/common sense to know why...u ain't ever gonna get it...u know what I mean?
Other posters here do, and they get it...just read the posts.
Mr. Scrabble, I am informed, I am realistic, I do know whats going on...I have a business license, my second one, now.
That is PRECISELY why I am arguing this, choosing to give my dogmatic PRAGMATIC opinion.
Mr. Asian MC, The "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT" attitude, which I completely agree with you, was FROM AMERICANS, IN AMERICA.
That's not us.
I DO have good intentions and work honestly here...but that doesn't mean that I can or will change anything with this GOVT. DO you really think you or anyone else will change ANYTHING here????
Please don't misunderstand me here.
I do agree that the law and going to the Local FAO can and will help.
I know of a friend that argued her case there, and was vindicated.
But I also have a two personal friends that have had business here and basically were extorted, bullied, and pushed out. No lie.
AS we veterans of Chiner know, and have seen over the years, this place is not friendly toward the LAOWAI.
If you think it is, I would argue you are Naive.
The laws continue to become more restrictive toward the Laowai, Visa's, WFO's, Licensing, Taxing, etc.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danharris/2015/01/02/china-business-law-trends-for-2015/
Whether it's the govt using these issues, i.e. Diayou Islands, Laowai b.s. or whatever, to distract from their IRON FIST RULE, it still remains clear.
If you don't agree with that or see it, again I would suggest you have bad discernment, or are ill informed.
I hope my position is more clear.
I am taking what I perceive as a Pragmatic approach based off of what I see and my experience in China.
CHINA will NEVER allow the Laowai to have some kind of power/control, or whatever here. HELL, if you know anything about this place, you know this is true...ask the Minority people who are CHINESE CITIZENS...HELL, ask the HAN CHINESE.
That is why I think it's a waste of time, and why I stated that if you have problems with this sorta issue (AS I DO), don't waste your time with this kinds of B.S.
Nothing will change.
I am an idealist, still...but now that I'm older, I KNOW (epistimologically speaking, with a flare of dogmatism, hehe) that NOTHING will change.
Do u follow American politics????
I'm OUT. |
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