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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Never heard of these scams as much as now and been here for 8 years. If these things are happening so much maybe it is a product of Western education. Easily taken advantage of due to fear of insult or lack of common sense. I have never had an issue telling Chinese people (in Chinese) I am not happy with what is happening. Sometimes some people think they have got you cornered, guess some just whine about it all the time, but most of us fight off the stupidity and live our lives.
More clauses for you, more clauses for them, more clauses to be ignored. I like the way my contract works, has its vague areas to negotiate, see no reason for every single thing to be put in stone. That is even if it can, can you really anticipate everything?
Guess the point is, be not only educated, but able to deal with the realities here. Otherwise, you might start posting links to yourself. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| The people I wanted to warn are not on Weibo nor QQ - they are foreign newbie teachers who come to ESL Cafe looking for truthful and helpful guidance. |
Of course not but now your misdirecting as you have posted that you have the means and the ability and it has been your advice to out dishonest employers via QQ and Weibo. So if you interested in being helpful then contribute in the same manor that you have advised.
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| Accentuating in bold is made to deliberately highlight areas of realistic problems some others try to conceal, or as they might say "we talked about that before". (2 years ago and the thread might be found on page 68 where nobody will see it). |
Again misdirection as no-one on this board has tried to conceal however, many have questioned you motives and your continuous links that seem to run in circles.
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| Too many people try to censor and control the conversations on this forum and want to chase away the people who want to talk about real problems and possible solutions. |
Chase away? These are real problems but your solutions are often unrealistic and have the characteristic of a person with an ax to grind and trying to "hoodwink" others.
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| Like I said in my previous post, only recruiters and teacher employers have an interest in hiding the truth from new teacher job applicants in China. Is there any legitimate reason you could have for not warning other teachers about the same minefield we must all walk across on a daily basis? |
First, you considerations of a mine field is not on par with the reality of working here as most teacher get along just fine and are ok with their employer. Inclusion of the word "we" is ill fitted as it would indicate that all are in the same "boat" and tht is simply not the case. Finger pointing at others on this board as recruiters and employers is also a cheap shot at trying to legitimize your post.
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| I don't hate China at all - only the air pollution and cheats. My post is only a response to those you and Bud made before me - nothing more or less. Please make no further assumptions. |
Misdirection is the new name of your game as Bud and I have very different understanding of the employment landscape in China and no one has ever posted that you hate China and if assumptions were made, they have been made by you as to the job tittle of those who disagree with you. At this point you are no longer giving advice but merely trying to prove your validity and your message has been lost in a garble of post with endless links in bold black.
I would encourage you again to go back to your position that you have the means to alert those on QQ and Weibo as after all you have stated that you have the ability. You yourself have said that many Chinese would support an "outing" of a bad president so make an appeal to this website and others to send you pm's and start with the effort that will generate results and not criticisms . |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The people I wanted to warn are not on Weibo nor QQ - they are foreign newbie teachers who come to ESL Cafe looking for truthful and helpful guidance. |
Of course not but now your misdirecting as you have posted that you have the means and the ability and it has been your advice to out dishonest employers via QQ and Weibo. So if you interested in being helpful then contribute in the same manor that you have advised.
| Quote: |
| Accentuating in bold is made to deliberately highlight areas of realistic problems some others try to conceal, or as they might say "we talked about that before". (2 years ago and the thread might be found on page 68 where nobody will see it). |
Again misdirection as no-one on this board has tried to conceal however, many have questioned you motives and your continuous links that seem to run in circles.
| Quote: |
| Too many people try to censor and control the conversations on this forum and want to chase away the people who want to talk about real problems and possible solutions. |
Chase away? These are real problems but your solutions are often unrealistic and have the characteristic of a person with an ax to grind and trying to "hoodwink" others.
| Quote: |
| Like I said in my previous post, only recruiters and teacher employers have an interest in hiding the truth from new teacher job applicants in China. Is there any legitimate reason you could have for not warning other teachers about the same minefield we must all walk across on a daily basis? |
First, you considerations of a mine field is not on par with the reality of working here as most teacher get along just fine and are ok with their employer. Inclusion of the word "we" is ill fitted as it would indicate that all are in the same "boat" and tht is simply not the case. Finger pointing at others on this board as recruiters and employers is also a cheap shot at trying to legitimize your post.
| Quote: |
| I don't hate China at all - only the air pollution and cheats. My post is only a response to those you and Bud made before me - nothing more or less. Please make no further assumptions. |
Misdirection is the new name of your game as Bud and I have very different understanding of the employment landscape in China and no one has ever posted that you hate China and if assumptions were made, they have been made by you as to the job tittle of those who disagree with you. At this point you are no longer giving advice but merely trying to prove your validity and your message has been lost in a garble of post with endless links in bold black.
I would encourage you again to go back to your position that you have the means to alert those on QQ and Weibo as after all you have stated that you have the ability. You yourself have said that many Chinese would support an "outing" of a bad president so make an appeal to this website and others to send you pm's and start with the effort that will generate results and not criticisms . |
You are putting words in my mouth never spoken by me and again making assumptions that may be convenient for your argument but simply are false. I never mentioned "bad President" ever. You did. I made mention of Chinese employees who expose their bad, greedy, and dishonest bosses on Weibo and QQ networks.
Advising teachers of the problems they could realistically face in China is hardly "hoodwinking". Providing advice is what all of you on this forum do on a regular basis. Are you all also "hoodwinking" or are simply against people who take a minority position against the 4 or 5 users who dominate this China thread? As a native-born American I tend to endorse freedom of speech, think it is okay to disagree and debate the points of disagreement, without attacking those that disagree with me. Conversely, I think censorship sucks.
My comments this far on this forum have related to proven and concrete facts concerning well-known systemic problems that affect half of all the foreign teachers in China. The majority in this forum appear to be in the well-educated and fortunate half of the China foreign teacher food chain. My comments about employee rights, contract clauses, teaching requirements are not posted for the benefit of the fortunate few but for those who are stepping onto the minefield for the first time. Again I ask YOU directly, do you want to hide all of the below from them or do you want to be part of the solution and alert them?
- Work dozens of unpaid overtime hours every month
- To lose their bonus, sick, and holiday pay
- To be used a marketing monkey to hand out flyers on a street corner
- To work at three different locations in a single day
- To work six days instead of five
- Get arrested, fined, jailed, and deported for working without a Z visa
- To get cheated out of housing deposits and air fare reimbursements
- To be cheated out of 50% of their paycheck
- To get late paychecks
- To be assigned split-shift working hours
- To be extorted for money for their invitation and/or release letters
- To have an illegal contract that forfeits their employee rights
- To have their lesson plans and ppts stolen from them and even sold
- To have their passports "held hostage"
- To be a victim of a "bait and switch" scheme
- To have their resume and passport scan sold to identity thieves
- To have their photos used in advertisements without their knowledge
- To have their names attached to fake testimonials
- To be conned into working a fake "Teacher Internship"
- To received reduced pay during probationary periods
Contrary to your suggestion, I have no "ax to grind" in China with any one. And to preempt someone who may have the audacity to suggest I have some "hidden agenda" be super clear that I have no product or service to sell nor promote to anyone. Like all of you, I am a teacher who learned most things in China by trial and error. Nobody ever warned me about squat. I feel lucky when someone sends me a link like this https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20140913101623AAWvOdx so I don't have to find out the hard way! And if you think my proposed solution of a "Online Recruiter Registry" (with real verified names, addresses, and licensing) is "unrealistic", then by all means, put forth a better solution, and I will support your efforts to make it happen.
And now to return to the point of the OP, China is in the lower half of the pay-range for ESL & TEFL teachers around the world and in the top 10 for AP Teachers according to every major HR Study from Hudson, Hays, Mercer, Antal, Fesco, .etc along with the sources already cited by others within this thread. The diversionary comments are moot IMO.
How much money a foreign teacher gets to actually collect depends on how much or how little they get exploited - IF they are not in the 50% of the fortunate and wise veterans here that have been posting for years.
SOURCES:
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=642187&highlight=china+foreign+teachers
http://www.eslwatch.info/china-2/reviews-china/58-china-scam-or-schemes/12410-foreign-teacher-scam-alert-trust-no-esl-or-tefl-china-job-recruiter-that-has-no-saic-license,-a-website,-and-real-street-address.html
http://chinascampatrol.wordpress.com
http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/phpbbforum/china-s-silent-scam-steals-40-of-foreign-teacher-salaries-t181524.html
http://www.chinascambusters.com
http://open.salon.com/blog/china_business_central/2013/03/13/phony_china_recruiters_now_target_5000_expats_monthly_1
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=1821535
http://chinascamwatch.org
http://www.eslwatch.info/reviews/asia-reviews/141-china-in-asia/12386-chinascamwatch-org-warns-of-cloned-recruiter-scam-websites-luring-china-foreign-esl-tefl-teachers-with-fake-jobs.html
https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20140922203725AAkSLgn
http://chinablacklist.wordpress.com
Last edited by Scrabble King on Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Banner41
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:04 am Post subject: |
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/sigh....you again
Go away please. Stop this spamming of the same junky links over and over. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Again I ask YOU directly, do you want to hide all of the below from them or do you want to be part of the solution and alert them? |
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| I want everybody to kick up some noise , I wanna hear some revolution. ... every one of you to decide whether you are going to be the problem or you are going to be the solution! MC5 |
I find my self reflecting on Fred 'Sonic' Smith at times like these. Sonically Speaking, Kick Out the Jams. |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:08 am Post subject: |
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The indisputable reality of China is that we expat teachers are the lowest-paid expats in China - and not by just a little bit.
http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2015/01/11/foreign-teachers-lowest-paid-expats-china-what-do-you-earn
Non teacher professional expats in China are earning 35,000 - 80,000 yuan per month, and our raises are few and far between.
When you start comparing salaries and wages of China expat teachers to those in Singapore, Korea, Japan and the other 20 top ESL/TEFL markets, the disparity is huge.
See: http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org
No matter what you may think about the CFTU, their charts and data are taken directly from credible sources like The New York Times, Huffington Post, Forbes, The Atlantic, etc. |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:47 am Post subject: |
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[i]
| Alien abductee wrote: |
Quoting a post from another anonymous forum with a link to a Yahoo question that links yet again to a CFTU .jpg. Your credibility is reaching lows I never thought possible. FYI the lowest paid expats in China are the Vietnamese factory workers in Guangdong, Filipina nannies (they're not just in HK), struggling foreign musicians, Ukrainian "models," and probably a few more I've forgotten about. We might be among the lowest paid expats from the developed countries but even that doesn't apply to all teachers, and it's still a pretty good living.
| Scrabble King wrote: |
When you start comparing salaries and wages of China expat teachers to those in Singapore, Korea, Japan and the other 20 top ESL/TEFL markets, the disparity is huge.
See: http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org
No matter what you may think about the CFTU, their charts and data are taken directly from credible sources like The New York Times, Huffington Post, Forbes, The Atlantic, etc. |
Yawn. Then give us a link to the primary source (NYT, Atlantic, Forbes) instead of using the discredited CFTU as a smokescreen for this duplicitous trash you're trying to pass off as "helpful information." |
I cited the link where I found all the charts in just one place:
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org
If you don't want the data then don't look at it. To me at least, I appreciate the accuracy of sourced data like the NY Times, Huffington Post, The Atlantic, Forbes, etc. and I don't give a rat's ass who the messenger is. Nobody at this forum bothered to collect this info and make it available to me. You surely didn't cite any sources. So I'm grateful that somebody did, whether you, China job recruiters, and forum advertisers despise the "messenger" or not. Sorry. I am a result-orientated guy. The information I get from that link is valid and better than anything else I see on this website. Maybe you guys can get Dave to compile similar data and make a sticky?
BTW... this reminds me of a story I heard about the famous Paul Revere who rode through Boston warning of the incoming British troops. Paul was a guy who supposedly drank too much, and played around with a few wives in town and also had a gambling problem. Do you think anyone gave a shit about any of that the evening he did his noble and historic announcement?
Then there was the case of a guy named "William" who tried to meet with General George Custer about 2 weeks before he was scalped to show him his "new invention" that could help the Army "tame the west". Custer claimed he was too busy and blew the guy off three times! "William" went to Custer's funeral and General Grant asked about the unusual invention. William Gattling gave the Army a demonstration of his "gattling gun" and the Army ordered 3 dozen of them less than a month after the slaughter at Little Big Horn.
INFORMATION AND THE TIMING OF INFORMATION FLOW IS MORE IMPORTANT SOMETIMES THAN PERSONAL PREOCUPPATIONS.
Forget the CFTU, see http://chinascamwatch.org |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:05 am Post subject: |
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"I cited the link where I found all the charts in just one place:
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org..."
Okay. You've given out that link at least a dozen times. It's time for you to stop and move on to something else.
Please read the stickies regarding forum behavior. |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
"I cited the link where I found all the charts in just one place:
http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org..."
Okay. You've given out that link at least a dozen times. It's time for you to stop and move on to something else.
Please read the stickies regarding forum behavior. |
No problem. Lets move on. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Please read the stickies regarding forum behavior. |
Have a Link? |
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SH_Panda
Joined: 31 May 2011
Posts: 455
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| mods??? |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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Poker Face
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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According to this 2012 article China foreign teachers have an average salary of $19,000 USD or 120,000 yuan per year. So yeah it may give you a comfortable life when you live here, but we all have to go home, and who wants to go home broke? Supposedly wages went up 5.7% since then do now in 2015 it's about $20,500 but still nothing to write home about.
http://www.expatarrivals.com/china/salaries-for-expats-in-china
Compared to Singapore, Korea, and Japan the pay rates in China really suck. But I personally didn't come to China expecting to make a ton of money. I came here to see China on someone else's dime - kind of like a working vacation you could say.
What is interesting on the chart at the above link however is that there is a really big gap on how little we earn compared to other expats in China. Nobody makes less money as a group than us teachers.  |
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Dan123
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Poker Face wrote: |
Compared to Singapore, Korea, and Japan the pay rates in China really suck. |
And are all far more expensive places to live in too. Wow! |
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The_Big_White_Elephant
Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Poker Face wrote: |
According to this 2012 article China foreign teachers have an average salary of $19,000 USD or 120,000 yuan per year. So yeah it may give you a comfortable life when you live here, but we all have to go home, and who wants to go home broke? Supposedly wages went up 5.7% since then do now in 2015 it's about $20,500 but still nothing to write home about.
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And most people in China can probably save about half of that if they make any effort to. That's about $10,000/yr. Also, how many hrs/wk does the average teacher in China work? 25? If they chose to take on a job with more hours or fill up their free time with privates, they could probably almost double their savings. They also generally get around 3 months paid vacation. How many jobs in the US give you 3 months paid vacation?
The average person in the US makes around $30,000/yr, working about twice as many hours as the average ESL teacher in China. Maybe they get 2-4 weeks of paid vacation. And if they are diligent, MAYBE they can scrape through the year with $10,000 in the bank.
People seem to have this tendency to look at salaries in hard numbers, when what really matters is your SAVINGS. The average ESL teacher in China has the ability to save much more than the average worker in the US.
So your statement that "but we all have to go home, and who wants to go home broke?" doesn't hold water, because after a year working in the US, you will most likely have LESS money in the bank, and thus be MORE broke than after a year working in China. The fact that the actual salary you would be making in China is smaller is completely irrelevant.
Last edited by The_Big_White_Elephant on Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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