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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| Doubt it. I understand the MATESOLs out there are very sensitive about the topic and find online courses insulting, but karaoke singing or listening to music for leisure absolutely nothing to do with music theory and music education. |
See, you're a bit wrong there. MANY of the MA TESOL programs out there are online degrees. You can't paint the field, or even all MA TESOL holders, with the same, broad brush. This whole discussion isn't about 'all online training is bad' or anything like that. Online MA TESOL degrees from reputable universities are accepted many places in the world because the employer knows of the university and the content of the program of study. Of course, they aren't accepted everywhere -- like I and others have said repeatedly, qualification requirements and expectations vary substantially around the world.
Online-only TEFL certificated tend to be of low quality, and because they are so short term, students completing them often end up without a solid knowledge of language teaching methodology and do not have a chance to practice the methods.
You can keep arguing with us, who have decades of professional experience in this field, if you would like. We're trying to help you here by telling you what our field is like. As I said earlier, we aren't saying that your previous experiences and training have no value whatsoever for ESL teaching -- we're telling you what employers expect, and we're telling you that having appropriate training in ESL teaching is necessary for being a skilled, professional ESL teacher. Your arguing isn't going to change what employers want, and it's not going to change the fact that properly learning about and practicing ESL teaching will be beneficial.
As has been said on here numerous times, there are places in the world where you will be fine with the qualifications you have. Heck, for some places you could just photoshop yourself a degree and you'd be set, and in other places, they don't even care if you have a degree at all. Such places also tend to pay very low wages and sometimes can be dangerous. On the other hand, jobs in more desirable locations and those that pay more are more competitive, and, thus, can require in-person certificates and graduate degrees in TESOL. |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
You can keep arguing with us, who have decades of professional experience in this field, if you would like. Like I said earlier, we aren't saying that your previous experiences and training have no value for ESL teaching -- we're telling you what employers expect, and we're telling you that having appropriate training in ESL teaching is useful for being a skilled, professional ESL teacher. Your arguing isn't going to change what employers want, and it's not going to change the fact that properly learning about and practicing ESL teaching will be beneficial. |
Thanks for your input and clarification, rtm. I'm actually not "arguing" with the actual information presented here (I'm very grateful for that). What I am offended by is the insulting and elitist tone I'm getting (not from you) when I'm simply asking a few questions, and questioning the rationale when it is "content area" that we are dealing with here. I'm sorry to anyone here if by questioning "the rules" I offended, but that's the way I learn - by asking questions. As I have said before, I absolutely do not believe that things should operate as the U.S. If I honestly thought that, do you think I would be interested in living and working abroad and would spend this much time inquiring about such possibilities? Btw, my parents are from the Ukraine, so I fully understand what it means to be an English learner and feel that I have a pretty multi-cultural perspective (but thanks, suphanburi, for insulting me again on that note and assuming that I believe everything should operate by U.S. standards).
I don't have the capability or money to acquire another Master's degree and I'm perfectly fine with teaching ESL in Korea or China. I'm not sure how this thread became so antagonistic when I simply wanted to know some basics (as someone new to the field) and where I could go with my Education degrees and a lack-luster TESOL certificate. I think I have my answer. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| It very much depends on what we mean by 'teaching'. Teaching methodology for EFL is significantly different to teaching in contexts where the teacher and learner share the same language. An education degree which doesn't include teaching practice with real EFL learners followed by trainer feedback will not preclude the need for a Celta or equivalent. |
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Scott at UW
Joined: 03 Apr 2014
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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There are online courses that are accredited.
Check TESL Canada's website to find online courses. You will still have to do a practicum but you can arrange to do it in your home state/country/province.
https://tesl.ca/training/tesl-canada-recognized-teacher-training-programs/recognized-teacher-training-directory/?prov=0&type=1
You should check to see if the country you are applying to accepts online certs. Though there is usually no indication on the transcript or certificate as whether the certificate was online or not.
| Quote: |
| See, that's where you lose me. ESL teaching isn't just the content. Language teaching has its own very specific teaching methodologies (e.g., communicative language teaching, audiolingual method, total physical response, task-based language teaching, content-based instruction / content and language-integrated learning, Focus on Form, grammar-translation method, and many, many, many more). I'm not saying that other disciplines don't have a number of methodologies, as I'm sure they do (though I have no experience in any disciplines other than language education), but I am saying that a skilled, trained ESL teacher needs to be aware of a number of methodologies, and have practice implementing them, preferably under the guidance, supervision, and evaluation of a skilled, knowledgeable teacher. |
I have to disagree with the idea that ESL/EFL teaching is so different from other types of teaching. Most of the student-teachers I have trained from education backgrounds easily pick up on ESL methodologies. Some are taken from mainstream education...TBL and Community of Learners. Others are easily adaptable. TPR is easily recognized by anyone who teachers young learners or any practical class.
The classroom management techniques are the same in both streams.
And people with B'Eds receive weeks of practicum training as opposed to the hours of practicum training the ESL teachers get in cert level courses.
| Quote: |
Do you have a broad base of knowledge in TEFL?
You have a firm grasp of Phonetics and Phonology, and their application in an EFL context? Do you know the difference (theoretical and practical applications thereof ) between phonetics and phonics?
You somehow have the innate ability (without the pedagogical background) to convey an understanding of pragmatics and speech acts to your students?
You understand the differences between language acquisition and language learning?
You are comfortable with CALL and TELL?
CBT/CBL and CLIL are second nature to you?
The concept of multiple Englishes works for you?
How are you with providing grammar instruction for academic writing. |
I am not going to go through all of these points.
But, every reading teacher I know knows the difference between phonics and phonetics as they components of two different approaches to teaching reading
Why you think mainstream teachers would not be able to use technology in their classrooms.
I think someone who teaches music would have clear idea of multiple Englishes as there would seem to be a direct correlation to music styles changing as they move to country to country.
And of all the things you could talk about teaching academic writing you choose grammar. I have never found a real big difference in teaching academic writing in ESL/EFL or mainstream classes.
In the end, the advice is true. Most people will not accept your credentials as to be equivalent to MTESL and the such. I have also been on hiring committees and the one thing I have found to be true is that good teachers are good teachers. It isn't that hard for a good mainstream teacher to come to grips with the changes necessary to be an effective ESL teacher. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting contrasting views there. Can only say that in my own experience I have found that the majority of teachers who were trained in other areas found it quite hard to take on board EFL methodology. In fact, many were quite resistant to many basic concepts - such as student-centredness. It did seem to relate to the age and length of previous experience, however. The trainees with more experience and who were older being the hardest to convince that teacher-fronted classes were not going to lead to a pass grade. |
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Scott at UW
Joined: 03 Apr 2014
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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That is interesting.
I was learning about student centered classrooms during my B'Ed in the 90's. I wouldn't think it is a new concept for teachers in L1 or L2 classrooms. TBL was all the rage then, too.
During my M'Ed it switched to learner-centered (that was in 2004). |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott at UW wrote: |
That is interesting.
I was learning about student centered classrooms during my B'Ed in the 90's. I wouldn't think it is a new concept for teachers in L1 or L2 classrooms. TBL was all the rage then, too.
During my M'Ed it switched to learner-centered (that was in 2004). |
Difference being that you were trained in Canada. ESL/FSL, immersion and bilingual schools with CLIL, CBT and CLT have been running since the early 60's with a body of research to match.
Back then, the US, UK et al were still working on audio lingual and TPR methodologies. CLIL as a term wasn't even coined till the 90's in Europe.
Do not assume that everywhere is like Canada or that TESL.CA has meaning or influence outside of the great white north. That is the same type of ethnocentrism that the OP was showing assuming that simply because he was a teacher and was a native speaker that he would be able to simply transplant himself abroad as a "premium" product rather than an entry level EFL teacher.
He is no better equipped to teach EFL than we are to teach music and for the same reasons.
Can he quickly pick it up = probably yes.
Is he ready today = no, other than as an entry level EFL teacher (just like I would, at best, be an entry level music teacher).
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