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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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 Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Lost and found - did you have to come back so soon?
Give us a rest - please? |
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drjtrekker
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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This Topic was posted in the Chengdoo Living website...
BUT STILL....damn SK, Go F'in Home. |
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Lost.And.Found
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 42
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Good news/bad news. The Chengdu teachers got released and they are being deported "no later than February 17th, 2015". My friend sent me a text and say they were treated very well by the police and Disney made them sign a non-disclosure agreement in exchange for providing the lawyer. I asked her who paid the fines and her reply was "Sorry, not allowed to talk about it." |
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likwid_777
Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| LaF, do you know how long they will be banned for, after deportation? |
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Lost.And.Found
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 42
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| likwid_777 wrote: |
| LaF, do you know how long they will be banned for, after deportation? |
She wouldn't talk details. But the last group that got nailed in Guangzhou got 5 year reentry bans in in Beijing, those that wrote "letters of apology" got a 3 year ban and those that refused got 5 year bans. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Interesting situation, if it is true.
I found one not-so-credible news source about Disney Employees. Lawyer Gary Chodorow is quoted:
http://www.vice.com/read/the-chinese-esl-industrial-complex-shady-working-conditions-abound-for-foreign-english-teachers-in-china-127
I looked up Gary Chodorow:
http://lawandborder.com/vice-media-exploitation-english-teachers-china-quoting-gary-chodorow/#more-23679
Though he mentions being quoted, he neither denies nor confirms that he said what Vice Media (Hmmmm...) claims he said. He does say something that needs to be said about people who get into trouble:
"... Foreign workers need to conduct their job search with eyes wide open..."
It's about doing one's homework. It IS a big deal and a big problem if one comes to China unqualified and under false pretenses (e.g. pretending to be a tourist, but actually intending to work). Even if there are unscrupulous recruiters encouraging recruits to lie on their applications, the recruit should know better. Those who run afoul of the law put themselves in that situation. If one educates himself regarding necessary educational requirements, health requirements, etc., before he arrives in the Land of Milk and Honey, he won't get into trouble. It doesn't take much to determine the requirements for legal entry into any foreign country: read that country's consulate web page. In addition, there are dozens of forums devoted to teaching abroad where one can get the necessary information and to verify what he has read elsewhere.
If there truly are crackdowns on illegal workers, that's a good thing, but it's not newsworthy. A dozen idiots caught KNOWINGLY breaking the law is hardly newsworthy. They weren't victims. They were stupid. |
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Lost.And.Found
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 42
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Whether they were stupid or just too trusting of Disney is debatable Bud but what the *beep* is with this "letter of apology" thing. What do they do with these letters and who are they addressed to? Seems kind of cheesey to me. Any explanation? I am curious to see what they say. Anyone here have to write one? |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Lost.And.Found wrote: |
| Whether they were stupid or just too trusting of Disney is debatable Bud but what the *beep* is with this "letter of apology" thing. What do they do with these letters and who are they addressed to? Seems kind of cheesy to me. Any explanation? I am curious to see what they say. Anyone here have to write one? |
We have seen these letters of apology pop up before in similar situations. Obviously in some cases the teacher is knowingly working without the proper visa, and albeit a bit dumb, one could argue asking for the letter of apology is justified. Other times it is not so clear. I read one thread on another board where the teacher was begging the school to complete the registration process but the FAO did not like Americans so wouldn't do his. When the raid came he got quite screwed, especially after he refused to do the letter of apology. I can't really assign any blame to the teacher here, though others on this board who will be quick to jump on him. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Lost.And.Found wrote: |
| Whether they were stupid or just too trusting of Disney is debatable Bud but what the *beep* is with this "letter of apology" thing. What do they do with these letters and who are they addressed to? Seems kind of cheesey to me. Any explanation? I am curious to see what they say. Anyone here have to write one? |
Though I have no direct experience with such letters, I'll guess that they probably pass through the local FAO to the PSB, then to whatever other entity has an interest in seeing these idiots deported.
Too trusting? How about stupid? Some westerners come to China under pretenses and conditions that they wouldn't even consider in their home countries because it is too risky, and being found out is a probability. In their own countries, most wouldn't relocate to another city for a job and misrepresent their qualifications and experience because they know that they'd be found out eventually, and possibly be prosecuted for lying about their qualifications. Before accepting a job in their countries, most would be sure that the terms of employment are crystal clear. Most would be VERY wary of an HR manager who says, "Oh, we can get around that rule. Just pack your bags, fly 300 miles and come to work. We'll get the details settled later.
Strangely, a lot of people are willing to relocate to China, a place that is so foreign to them that they don't speak the language, have ZERO qualifications, and no handle on the culture. They accept vague employment contracts that require insane work hours. Worse, they believe people who tell them, "Don't worry. You don't need to be qualified. You don't need experience. You only need to come on a tourist visa." If they'd take the time to learn a little about employment in China, they'd know the rules and the penalties. Instead, they listen to people who tell them what they want to hear, arrive at the job only to find that yes, they must work twenty-five to thirty hours per week. Teaching is no piece of cake, and BS-ing their way through class works for a very short time. That vague little paragraph in the contract about living arrangements isn't something lost in translation. It is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the truth. Worse, when they convert their pay to their home country currency, they find that even though they're living well on their Chinese salary, when the currency is converted to their own country's currency, they couldn't live on that amount back home. So they go online to complain about the purportedly insanely low wages they're working for.
Then, when they get busted, they try to hide behind the school's apron strings which (many times) aren't there. "I'm not at fault! The employer told me..."
The CRAZIEST part is that there are FTs who stick up for these idiots as if they had a RIGHT to do what they did.
Is this being too trusting? Okay. I'll concede that it is, but it was a choice, a conscious decision to come to China and to ignore the possible penalties for flouting the law. Anyone who is that naive shouldn't leave the shelter of their parents' basement. They should tough it out at home and start building a life there. I'll say it again: China is not the Land of Milk and Honey. There's serious work to be done. Come with an education and something to offer. Otherwise, the Chinese FT welfare will eventually run out or you'll be forced to move from one cr@ppy job to another until you are deported. |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
Too trusting? How about stupid? Some westerners come to China under pretenses and conditions that they wouldn't even consider in their home countries because it is too risky, and being found out is a probability. In their own countries, most wouldn't relocate to another city for a job and misrepresent their qualifications and experience because they know that they'd be found out eventually, and possibly be prosecuted for lying about their qualifications. Before accepting a job in their countries, most would be sure that the terms of employment are crystal clear. Most would be VERY wary of an HR manager who says, "Oh, we can get around that rule. Just pack your bags, fly 300 miles and come to work. We'll get the details settled later.
Strangely, a lot of people are willing to relocate to China, a place that is so foreign to them that they don't speak the language, have ZERO qualifications, and no handle on the culture. They accept vague employment contracts that require insane work hours. Worse, they believe people who tell them, "Don't worry. You don't need to be qualified. You don't need experience. You only need to come on a tourist visa." If they'd take the time to learn a little about employment in China, they'd know the rules and the penalties. Instead, they listen to people who tell them what they want to hear, arrive at the job only to find that yes, they must work twenty-five to thirty hours per week. Teaching is no piece of cake, and BS-ing their way through class works for a very short time. That vague little paragraph in the contract about living arrangements isn't something lost in translation. It is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the truth. Worse, when they convert their pay to their home country currency, they find that even though they're living well on their Chinese salary, when the currency is converted to their own country's currency, they couldn't live on that amount back home. So they go online to complain about the purportedly insanely low wages they're working for.
Then, when they get busted, they try to hide behind the school's apron strings which (many times) aren't there. "I'm not at fault! The employer told me..."
The CRAZIEST part is that there are FTs who stick up for these idiots as if they had a RIGHT to do what they did.
Is this being too trusting? Okay. I'll concede that it is, but it was a choice, a conscious decision to come to China and to ignore the possible penalties for flouting the law. Anyone who is that naive shouldn't leave the shelter of their parents' basement. They should tough it out at home and start building a life there. I'll say it again: China is not the Land of Milk and Honey. There's serious work to be done. Come with an education and something to offer. Otherwise, the Chinese FT welfare will eventually run out or you'll be forced to move from one cr@ppy job to another until you are deported. |
I agree with most or maybe even all of this. Maybe these folks were "too trusting" because of the supposed cachet and "integrity" associated with the Disney brand, but that is really no excuse for not doing the basic homework concerning employment in China and then applying a little brainpower.
What I am personally more interested in than the employees themselves is the other side of the story, though. What exactly are Disney franchises doing, or not doing, in terms of getting proper visas for their employees and, following that, FEC and Residence Permit? What mis-truths or outright lies are they telling their employees, and how widespread is this practice within Disney China?
I had some contact with a Disney recruiter in 2011, around the time I finished my contract with another school in China and before I wound up deciding to come to Indonesia instead. At the time, Disney were keen to hire me, but said they couldn't because I lacked two years' teaching experience (I had only one at the time). I thought that was fair enough if such was their requirement and moved on, but, until recently, I still had some interest in renting my soul to the Big-eared Devil-Mouse and working for Disney China for awhile. I based this interest in such a dubious activity on their total pay and benefits package, which, if as advertised, I still believe to be better than most in China: that is to say (unless things have changed) they PRE-pay the employee's flight to China from his or her home country or starting point; they pay a fairly significant training bonus; they offer a quite respectable salary plus what seems to be a more-than-adequate housing allowance, etc.
What I have discovered more recently is that I can get a comparable monthly salary and benefits (minus certain features, like the pre-paid entry flight and training bonus) for working significantly fewer hours in a much less corporate environment, with a significantly reduced risk factor for some of the "problems" that seem to be reported about working for Disney, from environmentally hazardous working conditions to bad management practices and mishandling of employees in terms of hours, etc, to this latest news about "visa malpractice".
Based on all the above, the chances of me personally dipping my toes in the Disney pool have dropped precipitously (read as "ain't likely to happen") but I am still curious as to how widespread (or isolated) these malfeasances are within Disney China and how deep they go, specifically and especially when it comes to practices related to legal working visas and legal working conditions in China for their employees.
As I mentioned, a few years ago they (Disney) seemed to have a "strict" requirement of two years' teaching experience, on which basis they regretfully declined to offer me a job. Are they really hiring people without prior teaching experience now? They also used to claim that they would supply the necessary documents for the prospective employee to obtain the required ("Z") visa in all cases. Are they really telling unqualified people to come over on tourist visas now? What's going on in Chinese Disneyland? |
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likwid_777
Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA
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Fergie
Joined: 10 Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: 5 Disney ESL foreign teachers arrested in China. Updates |
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| Lost.And.Found wrote: |
Are they still in jail? Already deported or what? I am very curious to know if Disney hired their lawyers and paid their fines? Did Disney think they were too big to be busted or what? From the article they are surely part of the fraud don't you think? Also what happened to the Disney teacher lawsuit from last year? http://eslwatch.info/forum/china/66-news-flash-disney-esl-teachers-busted-by-psb-visa-squad-in-chengdu.html
Didn't EF have the same problem last year? You know, if employers can't follow the law, the employees probably won't either. Now I know why the teacher turnover is so damn high in China.
I interviewed with Disney China last year and they wanted to send me to Chengdu. So glad I said no thanks. |
No, they were all released but had to leave China by the 17th of this month. My friend who works in Disney's marketing department says that Disney paid for their lawyer, their fines, and their air fare home. How many Chinese employers do you think would do that for their teachers?!? |
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likwid_777
Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:09 am Post subject: Re: 5 Disney ESL foreign teachers arrested in China. Updates |
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| Fergie wrote: |
| Lost.And.Found wrote: |
Are they still in jail? Already deported or what? I am very curious to know if Disney hired their lawyers and paid their fines? Did Disney think they were too big to be busted or what? From the article they are surely part of the fraud don't you think? Also what happened to the Disney teacher lawsuit from last year? http://eslwatch.info/forum/china/66-news-flash-disney-esl-teachers-busted-by-psb-visa-squad-in-chengdu.html
Didn't EF have the same problem last year? You know, if employers can't follow the law, the employees probably won't either. Now I know why the teacher turnover is so damn high in China.
I interviewed with Disney China last year and they wanted to send me to Chengdu. So glad I said no thanks. |
No, they were all released but had to leave China by the 17th of this month. My friend who works in Disney's marketing department says that Disney paid for their lawyer, their fines, and their air fare home. How many Chinese employers do you think would do that for their teachers?!? |
If that's true, it's (relatively) good in the context of Chinese language mill shysters. But if true, why didn't they just grease palms in order to get Z visas in the beginning? The cost would probably have been less than paying for fines, airfares and lawyers. I think that has to be BS. |
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weshh1
Joined: 20 Oct 2013
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, I'm a bit surprised to see this. When I was interviewing for Disney English they seemed very very thorough and precise with regards to visa requirements. I had to wait a year and a half before I could apply (based on initial conversation with DE recruiter), then when I thought I waited long enough they told me I had to wait another 3-4 months because the lack of work experience during one summer left me short in regards to meeting my 2 year post grad work experience requirement.
They even had a visa specialist my recruiter consulted with to find out when specifically I would be able to start. |
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Fergie
Joined: 10 Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| weshh1 wrote: |
Hmm, I'm a bit surprised to see this. When I was interviewing for Disney English they seemed very very thorough and precise with regards to visa requirements. I had to wait a year and a half before I could apply (based on initial conversation with DE recruiter), then when I thought I waited long enough they told me I had to wait another 3-4 months because the lack of work experience during one summer left me short in regards to meeting my 2 year post grad work experience requirement.
They even had a visa specialist my recruiter consulted with to find out when specifically I would be able to start. |
I never worked there but I can make an intelligent guess. Some of their branch operations outside of Tier 1 cities have to rely on recruiters. Some recruiters will just focus on the "Native English Speaker" part and supply the missing pieces - fake diploma and tefl certificate, and fake reference letter for the two years of previous work experience. Disney either was too lazy to verify or maybe to desperate to say "no". |
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