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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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 Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| DO you really think you or anyone else will change ANYTHING here???? |
Of course I do. I think I already have.
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| These ideas of a FT union, Black list, our RIGHTS, etc....are a waste of time. |
I am anti-union, black list, but rights are useful if you use them.
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It's not that I disagree with the LEGAL issues or the Chinese Law,
but as any veteran of Chiner knows...The laws are only of use when those that have the power want to use them.
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Seems this is the way it is anywhere, and usually I disagree with the law but on several occasions have used legal measures to work in my favor. After 15 years and several ventures, I am aware of one thing only. Know what your getting into. Have as many alternative plans as possible and when seeking information source as many information banks as possible.
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If you guys don't have the judgement/discernment/common sense to know why...u ain't ever gonna get it...u know what I mean?
Other posters here do, and they get it...just read the posts. |
I have never abdicated changing anyone, rather I haven't tried to understand Chinese business culture, only anticipate it thereby avoiding the pitfalls. If you don't get that then your going to be subject to events that will not be to your liking.
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Mr. Asian MC, The "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT" attitude, which I completely agree with you, was FROM AMERICANS, IN AMERICA.
That's not us. |
However, that attitudes still prevails on this board and with many expats. What I am saying is the world is open to the nomad and the trick is to find out what you can do and what is unobtainable. You have set your standard but why discourage those have set theirs a bit higher.
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AS we veterans of Chiner know, and have seen over the years, this place is not friendly toward the LAOWAI.
If you think it is, I would argue you are Naive. |
I am not sure WE veterans can make a blanket statement like this. I have found the system to be much more friendlier, financially than any oher place I have taken up residence. I have restrictions being a foreigner, and regulations are not within my control, but pray tell "where are they in your control"
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Whether it's the govt using these issues, i.e. Diayou Islands, Laowai b.s. or whatever, to distract from their IRON FIST RULE, it still remains clear.
If you don't agree with that or see it, again I would suggest you have bad discernment, or are ill informed. |
Several times you have stated that I am il informed and nave. Iron Fist Rule is everywhere and no place more apparent where their is a build up of civilian police forces with the left over equipment from military campaigns. Not sure what I am suppose to see here, and how this effects the residence of this country or the earning potential. At the end of the day, the question to answer is "do you earn or do you not".
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That is why I think it's a waste of time, and why I stated that if you have problems with this sorta issue (AS I DO), don't waste your time with this kinds of B.S.
Nothing will change. |
I have done well enough that this is not a concern to me at all. I am only interest in protecting what is mine. That means working where I want within the guidelines of what I can do.
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Do u follow American politics???? |
I watch the Daily Show! |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Once again I agree with your point of view - especially about the Daily Show! Can you imagine if that had such a TV show here in China?!? The poor *beep* would disappear after his national debut. They wouldn't even allow SNL to air over here!
For those who want a crash course on current China labor law and employee rights, I received this and another link from another user, and this looks similar to one I attended a while ago at the Friendship Hotel. IMHO, the more you know, the smoother you flow in China.
http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/activities/cftu-offers-weorkshop-on-expat-employee-rights-for-china-forein-teachers/
For now at least, I don't want to spend anymore time on this subject unless I learn something new to add and share. |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Please, take your time. |
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vikeologist
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 600
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:10 am Post subject: |
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This is of course a fairly complex issue. I'm sure that there are occasions and ways that foreigners can use Chinese law to their advantage, and the information that ScrabbleKing is not entirely invalid.
There is however an overriding principle that has to be taken into account. The law in China is only valid when it serves the government's (and by that I mean the party's) interests.
I noted that SK on another thread recommended writing to He Guoqiang, who used to be in charge of stamping out corruption. Actually the guy now is Wang Qishan; probably the second most powerful man in China, (some would say the most powerful) and possibly a really great guy doing a lot of good work stamping out corruption, but rumour has it not the most foreigner friendly guy in China. I'm sure he'd be very interested in hearing about the sterling anti-corruption work of HRH Scrabble and his CFTU operation, though I suspect it may not have results tremendously advantageous to sock puppetry.
As I say, this is a wide and interesting issue, but I think that it is important to have a realistic view of Chinese law. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Scrabble and his CFTU operation |
Just curious, has anyone ever been asked to join this org. by anyone? I have never been to a meeting or even inquired neither have I been invited, but I wonder for all the fear shown of a group, the question would be "Why"? While a union may be illegal in China that is not the reason I would not join. I'm just anti union and prefer to use my skills at job hunting and contracts, leaving others to work it out for them selves. Gives me an advantage over the new guys when they get "shafted" and most go home in one to three years anyway.
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| As I say, this is a wide and interesting issue, but I think that it is important to have a realistic view of Chinese law. |
Fully agree and also would like to add, a realistic attitude as to those who come to this board and seek information, as you may not actually have the ability to access post due to the continuous fear mongering as to a flaccid limp ability of a certain union in China. |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Scrabble and his CFTU operation |
Just curious, has anyone ever been asked to join this org. by anyone? I have never been to a meeting or even inquired neither have I been invited, but I wonder for all the fear shown of a group, the question would be "Why"? While a union may be illegal in China that is not the reason I would not join. I'm just anti union and prefer to use my skills at job hunting and contracts, leaving others to work it out for them selves. Gives me an advantage over the new guys when they get "shafted" and most go home in one to three years anyway.
| Quote: |
| As I say, this is a wide and interesting issue, but I think that it is important to have a realistic view of Chinese law. |
Fully agree and also would like to add, a realistic attitude as to those who come to this board and seek information, as you may not actually have the ability to access post due to the continuous fear mongering as to a flaccid limp ability of a certain union in China. |
Although it is not "my" group, I did attend a handful of meetings and there are three reasons why I refused to join up with this bunch...
1) To be a member they don't charge money, but they charge "time". They want 180 hours of volunteer time per year, and frankly I don't have the extra time to invest/donate. (they want 2 hours per day for 90 days) I'd frankly much rather buy a membership and be done with it, but they won't budge on this requirement.
2) The group is a bit too secretive for my tatses. They make their members sign a membership agreement that has strict non-disclosure clauses to the point that they cannot even defend their cause publicly online, identify other members, or even talk about specific activities until after they pass! I don't need this drama and secrecy in my life. There are about 30 old timers at the meetings that say this precaution is justified to prevent members from being deported or blacklisted - like happened to the old CTA people.
3) I don't always agree 100% with their tactics. They do try to do things the right and honorable way at first, but sometimes they get down and dirty and will stick a photo of a corrupt principal or greedy recruiter on all the ESL boards and hand out flyers to parents at the gate when they come to pick up their kids from school. I don't support that method. And as we can see everywhere, they are surely anti-recruiter and want everyone to deal with direct employers only. This may be a bit unrealistic in China.
But overall, I would say their intentions are good, there is no commercial angle involved, and they have exposed a lot of shady crap over the last few years. I did get a shitload of free and useful documentation from them, I went to their Thanksgiving dinner and a KTV party to socialize and network a bit. I was surprised to see some of my friends there. Their meetings are mostly in coffee shops or empty university classrooms in Haidian so not very convenient for most foreigners who live in Choayang. So I give them morale support for most, but not all of what they do. |
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roadwalker
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:29 am Post subject: |
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I think most of those of us who poo poo the cftu are of the opinion that it doesn't exist outside of the virtual world, and that there is no group but rather one or two individuals possibly shaking down schools and recruiters to avoid a blacklist or some other con. I'm still of that opinion.
On the chance that they are a "they" and that their intentions are honest or even honorable, they do a disservice to newbies by trying to scare them into avoiding all recruiters and assuming that everyones out to cheat you in China. These forums on Dave's were helpful to me, and to many others I would guess. Newbies have been able to get advice (and not occasional attitude) from FT's who may have been in their predicament, or have some information about a school. Most helpful has been the posts of what to look out for in a FT contract, since school situations change, and good and bad managers move on. If newbies learn to recognize the 'red flags' they have a better chance to avoid bad situations.
There's a lot of knowledge and even some wisdom on these boards. About schools, about getting around, about food. About health and safety issues. About language learning and yes, even teaching. Some of us are more concerned about pay than others, and that's fine. (Although, why anyone would get into teaching English abroad for the money is beyond me. There are many benefits but riches beyond one's dreams aint one of them.) But spamming the forum repeatedly with scare propaganda about scams everywhere and links that form circles with unpublished/unreviewed reports throwing around percentages all scientific-like must be a major source of confusion for those looking for help. |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: |
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I really can't argue with you roadwalker. I think 2 of the 5 board members had really bad experiences with some unethical agents that may have tainted the group. But they got a lot more mellow over the last year and at least now they admit that there are some honest recruiters out there, and at the last meeting I attended back in Oct/2014 they said they would publish a list of all the licensed recruiters with their contact info but would never endorse any company/person.
Btw... I went to one of their activities this morning that was SRO at Renmin University. http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/activities/cftu-offers-weorkshop-on-expat-employee-rights-for-china-forein-teachers/ They had a guest speaker (labor lawyer/professor) that answered more than an hour of questions. We also learned about regional "problems" where some laws are ignored. Anyway, they answer emails so ask them what you want. As I said, I support most of their efforts but will never join ANY organized group of foreigners in China - not even a church group. I think you guys know why. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:53 am Post subject: |
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I support most of their efforts but will never join ANY organized group of foreigners in China - not even a church group.
Then why are you pushing CFTU so hard? The whole idea behind a union is that there is safety and power in numbers.
Your
credibility
went
right
down
the |
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Scrabble King
Joined: 25 Dec 2014
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| In follow-up to the roadwalker I was sent this link by another forum user on this forum who advised me to ignore Bud who he said has a bad habit of attacking anyone who even mentions the CFTU and that other user insists that Bud is a China job agent. I don't know and I don't care. As I will say yet again, I will never join any group in China (which only invites government paranoia and monitoring IMO), but I get more useful information from the CFTU than Bud Powell ever gave me. Anyway for Roadwalker and anyone who is objective I leave you with this newsbit... http://eslwatch.info/articles/12477-cftu-s-2014-china-foreign-teachers-annual-survey-report-good-news-for-a-change.html |
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Poker Face
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| drjtrekker wrote: |
AS we veterans of Chiner know, and have seen over the years, this place is not friendly toward the LAOWAI.
If you think it is, I would argue you are Naive.
The laws continue to become more restrictive toward the Laowai, Visa's, WFO's, Licensing, Taxing, etc.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danharris/2015/01/02/china-business-law-trends-for-2015/
Whether it's the govt using these issues, i.e. Diayou Islands, Laowai b.s. or whatever, to distract from their IRON FIST RULE, it still remains clear.
If you don't agree with that or see it, again I would suggest you have bad discernment, or are ill informed.
I hope my position is more clear.
I am taking what I perceive as a Pragmatic approach based off of what I see and my experience in China.
CHINA will NEVER allow the Laowai to have some kind of power/control, or whatever here. HELL, if you know anything about this place, you know this is true...ask the Minority people who are CHINESE CITIZENS...HELL, ask the HAN CHINESE.
That is why I think it's a waste of time, and why I stated that if you have problems with this sorta issue (AS I DO), don't waste your time with this kinds of B.S. Nothing will change. |
I have to agree with you but your last sentence makes me have to ask you... If China is so er.... ummm...uh... lets say "passively hostile" towards us foreigners, then why do you stay here? Just curious. |
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Fergie
Joined: 10 Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| vikeologist wrote: |
This is of course a fairly complex issue. I'm sure that there are occasions and ways that foreigners can use Chinese law to their advantage, and the information that ScrabbleKing is not entirely invalid.
There is however an overriding principle that has to be taken into account. The law in China is only valid when it serves the government's (and by that I mean the party's) interests.
I noted that SK on another thread recommended writing to He Guoqiang, who used to be in charge of stamping out corruption. Actually the guy now is Wang Qishan; probably the second most powerful man in China, (some would say the most powerful) and possibly a really great guy doing a lot of good work stamping out corruption, but rumour has it not the most foreigner friendly guy in China. I'm sure he'd be very interested in hearing about the sterling anti-corruption work of HRH Scrabble and his CFTU operation, though I suspect it may not have results tremendously advantageous to sock puppetry.
As I say, this is a wide and interesting issue, but I think that it is important to have a realistic view of Chinese law. |
I agree with you Mr. V. Also, it doesn't matter how many rights you have on paper if you can't enforce them. How many teachers can afford to shell out 20,000 rmb for a lawyer and then watch as the case keeps getting postponed until your visa expires - and then doesn't get renewed? |
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Walsh
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Scrabble King wrote: |
Sorry fellas, I never mentioned any CFTU organization - just the fact that I received a chain letter advising me that us expats got more rights than we ever knew about.
How many of you honestly knew we had these rights or they were upgraded when Xi Jinping came to power?
"Anyway, I cut and pasted this from my source which I cannot link according to new Shexpat forum policies. I think you will agree this is quite devious and may have already stolen quite a few bucks out your pocket or those of your friends. It is often used in conjunction with the China Tax Scam as you will see below...
* You have the right to receive an original hard copy of your contract that is signed and chopped (red sealed) at the time you sign an employee agreement.
* You have the right to receive a written job description prior to signing your contract. It is up to YOU to make sure that job description is specific, in English, and not so vague that your hours, working days, work location, pay rate, holidays, bonuses, visa costs, air fare reimbursement, release letters, etc are clearly spelled out in no uncertain terms.
* You cannot be compelled nor forced to do anything not specified in your job description (which you should insist becomes and exhibit to your contract and also gets signed and chopped. This stops you from being used as a marketing monkey in shopping malls on the street handing out flyers).
* Your probationary period cannot exceed one month for each year of your employment contract. So if you are asked to sign a one year contract, your probation period should not exceed one month. If however, you sign a contract that specifies a 3 or 6 month probationary period, you are implicitly waiving your right on this issue.
* If you hold an FEC (Foreign Experts Certificate) you cannot be compelled to work unpaid overtime hours without your consent. This one protection alone is worth about 5,000 - 10,000 rmb every month to some expat teachers in China
* You have the right to receive both an invitation letter and release letter free of charge (These are both legal requirements and administrative duties of the employer)
* You have a right to a Z visa if employed in China (Again, this is a legal duty of the employers and if anyone tells you that you only get a Z visa after you complete your probationary period they are surely a scam operation to be avoided).
I don't care who the messengers are so long as I get the information that others have been hiding from me.
How many of you guys ever walked over to SAFEA or the Ministry of Labor to ask for a copy of your employee rights? I am grateful that somebody bothered to do this and translate them into English and got the word out - even if they used a chain letter. At least now I know.
This is an ESL Forum and these employee rights and labor laws should be a sticky here. The fact they are hidden from people really makes me wonder WTF is going on. Aren't we supposed to help one another here? Would you rather not know you had these rights?"
Btw... there are 15 rights in all but the other 8 are really obvious ones like: "Employers must provide a safe work environment for their employees," sick leave, maternity leave, etc. My wife said the Chinese professionals had these rights for more than 10 years, and we were just granted the same rights in 2012 - not some special laws for us - just the same as all other "professionals". |
Question... The OP talks about 15 employee rights but there are only 7 listed here. Do any of you have the other 8 or a link where I can find them all in one place - in English or Chinese? Thanks. |
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