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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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 Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| fluffyhamster wrote: |
3) overhaul the Mandarin GCSE so that there is only a minimal or zero focus on the native orthography. Pinyin-only is probably the way to go for this level, leave any formal study of the hanzi until A level. |
Hey Fluffy,
Looking on UCAS for PGCE options with Mandarin there appear to be barely 5 places offering this language. Not much if this is meant to be the language kids are supposed to be learning nowadays?
I wonder how it's taught now. Surely they don't have to study hanzi. Wouldn't they all be failing their GCSEs?  |
Hello again kpjf. Although it's been a couple of years now since I was checking out the PGCE in MFL meself, I recall there were also only around half a dozen institutions if that offering the Mandarin option back then too. So yeah, as you say, hardly the language yet! But as it's the (neoliberal-dystopian) British government that we're talking about, the gap between rich rhetoric and sad underfunded reality will likely remain LOL.
If you poke around the GCSE specifications available on the net ( https://www.google.co.uk/#q=GCSE+level+chinese , I've just been looking at the AQA and Edexcel ones), one thing you'll be immediately struck by is the predominance of hanzi and complete lack of Pinyin; then, there are samples of past papers and actual student answers. I'd need to read up a bit more to be sure quite how the 4 skills are actually taught if not assessed, but it seems logical still that a complex orthography (when demanding to be at least partly mastered) will certainly distract from other content, and some of the comments here http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1757286 would seem to bear this out. (There may be more info in similar threads: https://www.google.co.uk/#q=GCSE+Mandarin+site:www.thestudentroom.co.uk ).
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:37 am; edited 2 times in total |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| fluffyhamster wrote: |
3) overhaul the Mandarin GCSE so that there is only a minimal or zero focus on the native orthography. Pinyin-only is probably the way to go for this level, leave any formal study of the hanzi until A level. |
Hey Fluffy,
Looking on UCAS for PGCE options with Mandarin there appear to be barely 5 places offering this language. Not much if this is meant to be the language kids are supposed to be learning nowadays?
I wonder how it's taught now. Surely they don't have to study hanzi. Wouldn't they all be failing their GCSEs? |
I somehow have my friend's sister as a facebook friend and she posted something about doing some Mandarin classes. She clearly doesnt know Mandarin herself so that was interesting. Probably more of a cultural awareness type thing? I dunno, sounded fun. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Maitoshi wrote: |
| I guess if we aren't concerned with literacy in the target language, language study can be simplified quite a bit. |
In the ES curriculum I teach, reading and writing are not taught. Only listening and speaking. And, within that context, I think the ES curriculum is effective with interactive and authentic use of TL. My kids enjoy interviewing each other about their likes and dislikes.
Then in JHS they focus on grammar translation and audiolingualism and drop authentic use of language.
As an aside, I have met gaijin who are quite fluent in spoken Japanese yet can't read kanji much. They seem to do ok being functionally illiterate. Not that I recommend that approach. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| Maitoshi wrote: |
| I guess if we aren't concerned with literacy in the target language, language study can be simplified quite a bit. |
In the ES curriculum I teach, reading and writing are not taught. Only listening and speaking. And, within that context, I think the ES curriculum is effective with interactive and authentic use of TL. My kids enjoy interviewing each other about their likes and dislikes.
Then in JHS they focus on grammar translation and audiolingualism and drop authentic use of language.
As an aside, I have met gaijin who are quite fluent in spoken Japanese yet can't read kanji much. They seem to do ok being functionally illiterate. Not that I recommend that approach. |
The essentially phonemic nature and graphological details of the alphabet can be conveyed in just a lesson or two. Same thing with the kana syllabaries, in that they can if necessary be more or less learnt in just a matter of days. Kanji (and hanzi too, even with their more generally limited number of readings, usually just one or two readings at most) however are a different kettle of fish! I think far too many courses plough into teaching Chinese characters far too soon, often for want of anything better in the spoken content of such courses! |
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kpjf
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hi again
That's interesting, thanks for the links! Ha, yes, I wonder when Mandarin will take off. I thought from things in the media a few years ago that they were pushing this language, but still only a handful of places are offering it.
| Quote: |
| one thing you'll be immediately struck by is the predominance of hanzi and complete lack of Pinyin |
I'm surprised at that. Maybe I'm being critical but look at pupils' level after 5 years of learning easier languages such as French or Spanish. They know nothing! I wouldn't be so confident they'd be equipped at writing Chinese and as anyone who's studied Asian languages knows it's one thing understanding the script when you see it and another thing reproducing it. Maybe they are quite generous when marking the students' attempts at reproducing the hanzi (?)
Have a look at this: http://qualifications.pearson.com/content/dam/pdf/GCSE/Chinese/2009/Specification%20and%20sample%20assessments/Edexcel-GCSE-Chinese-SAM.pdf
Interestingly it says in the pdf
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Use of Chinese Characters
All passages and questions are printed twice, once in traditional/full characters and once in simplified characters. Questions in traditional/full characters begin on page 49.
Questions in simplified characters begin on page 71. You may work from whichever version you wish. Please indicate which set of questions you intend to work from by putting a cross in one box below:
TRADITIONAL/FULL 繁體字
SIMPLIFIED
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(I don't know why simplified didn't copy properly)
| Quote: |
| I'd need to read up a bit more to be sure quite how the 4 skills are actually taught if not assessed, but it seems logical still that a complex orthography (when demanding to be at least partly mastered) will certainly distract from other content, |
I see that, such as the person who writes
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| Because of the fact that you have to learn characters, the content of the course is a lot less comprehensive than other language GCSEs |
But, not sure if this is really true
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| the writing and speaking are now coursework based I think |
Now with all the language exchange sites kids could perfect their speaking/writing getting very high marks, if that were true. |
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kpjf
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| Maitoshi wrote: |
| I guess if we aren't concerned with literacy in the target language, language study can be simplified quite a bit. |
In the ES curriculum I teach, reading and writing are not taught. Only listening and speaking. And, within that context, I think the ES curriculum is effective with interactive and authentic use of TL. My kids enjoy interviewing each other about their likes and dislikes.
Then in JHS they focus on grammar translation and audiolingualism and drop authentic use of language.
As an aside, I have met gaijin who are quite fluent in spoken Japanese yet can't read kanji much. They seem to do ok being functionally illiterate. Not that I recommend that approach. |
The essentially phonemic nature and graphological details of the alphabet can be conveyed in just a lesson or two. Same thing with the kana syllabaries, in that they can if necessary be more or less learnt in just a matter of days. Kanji (and hanzi too, even with their more generally limited number of readings, usually just one or two readings at most) however are a different kettle of fish! I think far too many courses plough into teaching Chinese characters far too soon, often for want of anything better in the spoken content of such courses! |
But, at the same time in my experience for textbooks I've experienced the opposite! So many Japanese books I've encountered use only romaji or hiragana. It's almost like they're afraid of putting people off.
I wanted to learn Cantonese and there's not much quality out there in terms of textbooks (okay, I realise it's mainly a spoken language). Many I see don't use script so it's quite annoying as it just harms you in the long-run. Added to that Cantonese is quite confusing as there is more than one way to spell the words, unlike, AFAIK Pinyin's standardisation (?). However, I guess you need a balance of learning both. I don't understand those people who can speak Japanese relatively well, yet can't read it. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Yeah one definitely has to take some of those kids' comments with a pinch of salt - they can't all be language prodigies, and there may be a bit of at least subconscious one-upmanship going on in the comments. And it could be in or become part of the Chinese learner's mindset to be self-effacing LOL. I just find it surprising if schoolkids really are required to handwrite much. (Thinking back to the adult "postgrad" I did - somewhere between A level and a year or two of undergrad at most, I'd say! - we were required to recognize/be able to read simplified and traditional, but I don't recall there being any handwritten component in the final exams. There were of course informal weekly tests and so on that required some translation not only into English but also into Chinese, but those who'd not prioritized the hanzi were allowed to write in Pinyin. It would be interesting to go back and see how tonally accurate such classmates' Pinyin was!).
TBH I wasn't really thinking of Japanese textbooks that much, but the ones I am passingly familiar with (JBP, JFE) don't shy away from the kana certainly. I'll need to look at them again to see quite how they tackle any kanji, doubtless there are glosses but little in the way of stroke orders, mnemonics etc. I'd suggest one get readers such as those by O'Neill, Miller, or Jorden, as spoken textbook text isn't necessarily formal written text proper. Point taken though that a lot of books on Japanese can get by with just romaji (Jorden's JSL 1-3 springs immediately to mind, but most romaji-only books are a lot less ambitious than that! Berlitzy basic courses seem more representative). I was thinking more of Chinese stuff like PCR and mainland textbooks generally. I really need to take a closer look at NPCR sometime though!
Pinyin is a great (pretty straightforward) system, though I can see the attractions of some of the older, formerly competing systems (Pinyin won out), especially Yale (for English speakers), and Gwoyeu Roma...tzyh? (in attempting to incorporate and spell out tones/get rid of diacritics). You can imagine the nosebleeds I suffer when I try to make sense of the various schemes for romanizing Cantonese ROFL! |
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