Job Discussion Forums

[wavelength]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I need help.

I see it all the time, and it's irritating. I can't put my finger on it, but here are a few examples:

"In the Canada, if this happened, a fight would start."

"Do you believe in the God?"

As an English teacher, I'm supposed to be able to talk about this with some eloquence, yet I can't. This always tips me off that the writer is a non-native speaker, but I would like to talk about this problem intelligently. Especially to inquisitive student who want to know why it's retarded.

Please start talking about this foreign (to me) use of the article "the".

[spiral78]

1. Proper names don't require articles. The United States is different because it's a collection of (supposedly united, though this is debatable) states.

Best regards,
The spiral

Seriously, there are numerous books out there with real info and illustrations of basic article usage. Murphy's Grammar in Use is the easiest to understand, IMO. Well worth investing time and money into this one.

On a related note, please keep in mind that while many native English speakers assume that article use is a basic element of the language, many studies show that it's among the very last thing that non-native learners of English ever perfect - the rules beyond the basics are actually very complex. So probably not the best idea to tell your students article errors are retarded (not that you would actually have told anyone that)!

[wavelength]

Thank the God! A simplistic answer I can put in my carry-on.

[spiral78]

Ok, since you're so enthusiastic, I'll dole out another one:-)

A/the

If I can go to any old bank to do whatever is pending, I need to go to A bank. It doesn't matter which one.

If I need something from my specific bank, I need to visit THE bank (my specific one).

[buravirgil]

I'm reminded of Google Launches 'The Google' For Older Adults

I emphasize to all learners of English that it's a formidable language to learn. I cross my eyes and state: English is crazy.

To more proficient students, I offer a brief explanation that the evolution of English is over a span of 1500 years.
That its "rules" are not really rules, but patterns that have evolved between countries at war and extensive borrowing.

Articles present a challenge because it's a matter of four (4) choices and except for the pattern of a and an, not an easy pattern to master because it's dependent on meaning. The choice not to use an article can be the most challenging. What native language is involved is a factor as Japanese, Russian and Korean don't have articles as we define them in English. But for the languages that do, the patterns are not always congruent.
Article (grammar)
Articles
English Teacher Melanie

[wavelength]

You mean like:

"I need to check the interest rates at a bank."

or

"I need to order some new checks at the TD Bank."

(I was really happy with your first simplistic answer...)

Honestly, I get it.

[wavelength]

[spiral78]

[wavelength]

Ah, Gawd I hate that. It's the same mistake 30 times!

[spiral78]

Oh, and my Slavic speakers have continuing and forever difficulty with articles, though at more complex levels than the issues you describe:-)

[johnslat]

Dear wavelength.

With proper nouns, the use of "the" can be confusing. As spiral said, with countries, those that have "union" or "united" (e.g. the Union of South Africa," the United Kingdom) take "the." Well, usually - some still say the Sudan and the Gambia." Also, countries that are plural take "the" (e.g. the Philippines, the Netherlands).
If the "official name" includes the type of government, "the" is used (e.g. the Republic of China, the Dominian Republic)

Cities almost never use "that" (exception: the Hague)

In general, with geographical features (oceans mountain ranges, islands, etc) bigger uses "the" - the Pacific Ocean, the Nile River BUT Lake Erie. ANd plurals take "the" = the Rocky Mountains, BUT Mount Everest, the Hawaiian Islands.

For common nouns, see below. The biggest problem here is that so many words have both a count and a non-count meaning, sheesh.


Article rules: “a, an, the“ and “some / any“ or 0 (no article/word)

COUNT NON-COUNT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GENERAL SPECIFIC GENERAL SPECIFIC
SINGULAR
a, an the O the
(some / any)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GENERAL SPECIFIC GENERAL SPECIFIC

O the O O
PLURAL (some / any)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
O = no article and no “ some / any “

Three general rules:
1. a singular countable noun always has an article – or an adjective – with it. Examples: I have a book; This is my book.
2. Never use “a“ or “an“ with a non-count noun.
3. Never use “some“ or “any“ with a singular count noun.
But remember – the BIGGEST problem in English is that words can have more than one meaning. So, some nouns can be “count“ with one meaning, but
“non-count“ with another meaning.
Examples: I saw a chicken in the road yesterday. I had some chicken for dinner last night.
“Any“ also has another meaning – “it doesn’t matter which one “ – and can then be used with a singular count noun: “Any teacher here can help you“ . But that meaning will not be used on any quizzes/tests.

When a noun is specific:
A. If the noun is modified by a phrase or a clause, it is
usually specific. Examples: The man in the blue shirt is my teacher; the men that I talked to yesterday are teachers.
Exceptions: If the phrase/clause does NOT make the noun specific enough.
Examples: He lives in an apartment in Riyadh; Students that copy their homework never pass.
B. When there is usually only ONE of something:
Examples: He went out the front door. Let’s go to the zoo.
C. When the noun is mentioned a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. time
Example: I see a man. The man (that I see) is coming this way

An adjective, by itself, is usually not enough to make a noun specific.
Example: He’s a good man.
Exceptions: He’s the only good man; He’s the other good man.

Article rules “a, an the“ and “some/any“ or 0 (no article/word) p. 2

Also, when you ask a question, using a singular general count noun, “a“ or “an“ is usually also used in the answer.
Example:
A: “Do you have a car “
B: “No, but I have a truck“ or “Yes, I have a car.“

The meaning of “some and any“ is about halfway between general and specific. Use “ some “ with positive statements and questions. Use “any“ with negative statements and questions. “Some and any“ can be adjectives: “Do you have some/any money?“ and pronouns: “No, I’m sorry. I don’t have any. “ or “Yes, I have some “. Use “some/any“ only with plural nouns and non-count nouns
Examples: Some students in this class copy their homework. I bought some rice and (some) coffee yesterday. I don’t have any money.

Rules for using “a“ and “an“:
Use “a“ when the next word begins with a consonant
(e.g. b, c, d, f, g, etc.). Exception: if “h“ beginning the next word is silent , use “an“.
Examples: an hour, an honest man
Use “an“ when the next word begins with a vowel ( e.g. a, e, i,
o, u). Exception: if “u“ beginning the next word sounds like the
word “you“.
Examples: a university, a unit, a usual mistake (but “an unusual mistake”)

Regards,
John

P.S. Darn - well, my chart won't transfer to this format. I can send it to you if you want.

[esl_prof]

[johnslat]

Some things can't be taught - no rules (or very, very few rules - with exceptions to those).

The big four here, I'd say, are as follows: 1. propositions; 2. whether to follow a word (often a verb) with a gerund or an infinitive; 3. phrasal verbs: separable or non-separable; 4. spelling

With article use, there are, at least, some rules for common nouns. At advanced levels, especially with students whose language uses no articles, teaching and practicing those rules can lead to improvement.

Just my opinion based on lots of experience.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I'm SURE you can be taught how to proposition!


With Communist greetings

Sasha

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Oops - Man proposes; God disposes, old eagle eye.

Of course, there days, maybe it should be Man or Woman proposes. What follows is either rejection or an engagement, a word, coincidentally enough, used often in warfare.


Regards,
John