Job Discussion Forums

[brsmith15]

I have a question that I hope may spark an interesting debate. Do you think China has made real progress or not?

Argument for progress: Examples would include GDP growth, construction, space development, landing the 2008 Olympics and the 2010 Expo, 30% internet users, improvement in quality manufacturing, more people with higher education, improved infrastructure, closer international ties. Cities have seen the beginnings of senior centers and shelters for the homeless. Medical care is better.

Argument against progress: That all the examples cited could never have taken place without foreign assistance. For example, their vehicle for manned space flights is nothing more than the Soviet Proton with a few new features. Most people are still backward, ignorant, unrefined, lacking in common sense and honesty. China has made little real progress if we look at it from what the country itself has done on its own.

Waddya tink?????

[matador]

China is moving in the right direction...but... it takes time. The only question will be when people realize that they have gone as far as they can with 'economic freedom'...and want 'political freedom' as well. Overall then, a B-.

Quite good but still room for improvement. And I was just in Shanghai last week.... Development in all areas of the country IS uneven but if you take the average..its QUITE good.

[blackguy-n-Asia]

I have a theory:

China has come full cirlce, it's on the verge of warlordism and fractured states. The government is about to collapse and then...... a leader steps in the power vacuum. His name is ______. He unites the people and attacks Japan, using mercinaries, he overruns Europe and bombs the middle east. Then he builds giant cities all over Africa and the world....leaving the West to rot. He calls his new empire Ching Kuo.


Not a good book series, but fun to read. Seriously, I don't think the Government there will last the decade. Something has got to give soon.

[Roger]

Measured against a Western perspective, Chinese do live a better life these days compared to, say, 1989.
It's all evident in material terms and rising standards of living. Does it go hand-in-hand with immaterial value progress? Probably not. Freedom is still circumscribed by the Party who still maintains its monopoly on opinions here; corrupt officials get denounced by their own peers rather than by the populace.
But the Chinese masses also are enjoying an increasingly more liberal right to movement, which includes travelling abroad. While extremely few Chinese return from overseas with an awakened political sense, the risk for the Party is that if a major crisis unfolds those temporarily resident abroad might stay there for good. Remember, China lost some 300'000 bright young minds back in the 1980s when it started opening up to the world at large, allowing its own students to enroll in European universities (long before American and Australian universities!). THis was a major humiliation for the government.
But I can't believe this system is going to implode or collapse any time soon. The masses actually support it, lies and half-truths and all!
This is because this government has successfully instilled in them an extreme chauvinism and superiority/inferiority complex. Say anything "bad" about China's institutions, and you are bound to meet with the opprobrium of just about anyone.
For the authorities it is getting easier to maintain their power as it is offering ever more economic freedom. That's what the average Joe Zhou craves the most - not "representative" or "direct" democracy!

[blackguy-n-Asia]

This makes sense.

I've noticed on other sites that if you say two bad words about China, a sort of 'how dare you' mentality kicks in. Can't stomach any type of objectiveness.

[Newton]

I agree with Roger. Most everyone I've met has been proud of the changes China has made, so at the very least they believe they're progressing.

Economic success has a way of cooling revolutionary fervor. If people are able accumulate more wealth, then they won't be terribly inclined to attack the system that helped them accumulate it. And while I have spoken with people who acknowledge the areas where China is still lacking, most would rather just talk about how far they've come. They really want to be seen as on par with Europe and the US. I think to do this China will need more 'homegrown' innovation, rather than relying on foreign influences.

[Ludwig]

[blackguy-n-Asia]

Laurent/Ludwig/ Troll

Your posts about me are getting tired.

What is your point? Do you miss me so much? xoxo

[struelle]

My two cents worth is that progress has been made, but it's progress on a symptomatic level. Sort of like slapping on a band-aid to heal a deep wound.

Several 'hot spots' still remain, including the Taiwan issue, that could erupt into more serious problems. Beijing has mentioned a few times that they value reuinification more than their own economic development and 2008 / 2010 committments. So if Taiwan pushes for independent statehood, this could provoke a conflict - even though they are betting China would not compromise their economic growth.

The only way to see whether Beijing is bluffing or not is to actually run the simulation, as it were. It's very likely that Taiwan's Chen could make a move towards statehood during his term, and the only thing to do is wait and see.

Steve

[bullitt]

[randyj]

Let's define "progress". To me the word suggests the idea that life is in general getting "better". The word "better" might mean different things to different people, but to Chinese people it probably relates to the economy. Probably 99 out of 100 would say there has been progress in the last twenty years, based on this definition. As for the future, although certainly there are profound problems, I remain optimistic.

[bendan]

It's a strange question given that there is no specified time period. If we're talking about the period since the sixties or seventies then it seems amazing that there could even be a debate over the answer.

[Redfivestandingby]

China has made great strides economically. But as far as open-mindedness....well.

I just came back from class. A 17 year old student hijacked the class by starting this whole 'we hate the Japanese' thing. I'm sure some of you have had these.

They're still living in the past mentally. They're totally unaware of how much Japan has helped them develop.

[bendan]

It's always easy to provide anecdotal evidence of a lack of development, but I disagree with the idea that the only real progress has been economic.

What about:

Reduced infant mortality rate
Increased literacy rate
Freedom of choice in job decisions
Increased participation in higher education
More travel freedom
Access to foreign media (through the Internet)

There are plenty of other examples. I'm not denying that many, many problems remain. It's also true to say that pollution and crime have got worse in most areas, but I'm really surprised that people could doubt there had been progress. We shouldn't let the apparent lack of enlightenment on certain issues obscure the fact that dramatic changes have taken place in a very short period of time.