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happyinshangqiu
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 279
Location: Has specialist qualifications AND local contacts.
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 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Emp1 wrote: |
I've just given you the example of an accountant. Qualified ACA's at the manager (but not senior manager/VP) level get around 50,000GBP a year (500,000RMB). But take off tax and take off rent and utilities, and you actually discover the guy could be making more teaching in China and loading up on privates and side work. That situation cannot last - it didn't in Korea, it didn't in Japan, and it won't here either. |
Well, I have to say my experiences don't jive with your worldview on this - the better places will pay for related qualifications - lawyers, accountants and whatever will get bog standard rates for their non-related qualifications, there is no reason why that should change.
The only people under threat from your proposed future view are other teachers with non-related qualifications. I would agree that if one wants to carry on teaching, they are best off investing in themselves by studying for related postgraduate qualifications instead of relying on a BA Poli-Sci degree, (For example).
As for the need of English dying out in China will all depend if China takes over from the United States as the no.1 superpower - the linguistic hegemony is so well established globally that the Chinese know that the world isn't going to learn Mandarin Chinese - that is why the government has put all this time and effort to get their population up to speed in English.
The language war - which was between English and French over a century ago, has been won long ago.
The Koreans and Japanese might sack English learning off - the Chinese ? Not for awhile, they have a lot more at stake. |
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Emp1
Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| happyinshangqiu wrote: |
| Emp1 wrote: |
I've just given you the example of an accountant. Qualified ACA's at the manager (but not senior manager/VP) level get around 50,000GBP a year (500,000RMB). But take off tax and take off rent and utilities, and you actually discover the guy could be making more teaching in China and loading up on privates and side work. That situation cannot last - it didn't in Korea, it didn't in Japan, and it won't here either. |
Well, I have to say my experiences don't jive with your worldview on this - the better places will pay for related qualifications - lawyers, accountants and whatever will get bog standard rates for their non-related qualifications, there is no reason why that should change.
As for the need of English dying out in China will all depend if China takes over from the United States as the no.1 superpower - the linguistic hegemony is so well established globally that the Chinese know that the world isn't going to learn Mandarin Chinese - that is why the government has put all this time and effort to get their population up to speed in English.
The language war - which was between English and French over a century ago, has been won long ago.
The Koreans and Japanese might sack English learning off - the Chinese ? Not for awhile, they have a lot more at stake. |
It's not that they get more because of their qualifications. What I mean is - an accountant could move to China, get a job similar to the one I have (uni job with 16 classes a week), load up on side work the same way I have done, and make more money than he did back in his own job (on an after tax/rent/utilities basis, since taxes are high in the UK, but non-existant in China if you teach uni and do side work). His savings potential is higher in China than it is when he's working in a job in the UK that requires actual hard work and proper qualifications.
Most UK workers don't make 500,000RMB a year. 280,000RMB is the average annual wage. And that's before taxes. After taxes, that's 210,000RMB a year. And then they have to pay for accommodation out of that! What I'm saying is...the compensation in China in relation to hours worked is very high when you consider the qualifications of those who work in this industry. This is, after all, entry level work, where there's plenty of jobs but no barriers to entry...logic dictates the pay 'should' be shitty, but it's not, it's very good if you actually work 40 hours a week.
I'm one of those who believes in making hay while the sun shines. If ESL in China lasts for the rest of my lifetime, then so be it. But I've seen Korea fall, and heard stories of how Japan used to be the same, although that was before my time. Even if you do think ESL lasts forever, it still makes sense to bank the money ASAP because of the power of compound interest anyway. |
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RW8677
Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| RiverMystic wrote: |
Wow, what a land of milk and honey China is! Why would anybody bother to work anywhere else when saving a billion a year is clearly the norm, according to this thread. Cash is falling from the skies in this place! The Lord giveth, but he doth not taketh away!
Then one looks at the job board and sees the typical salary is far lower than what most here are claiming as savings. Strange, that.  |
Perhaps those who wish to talk about their salaries do so because they are not ashamed? Because they work a lot of hours and make good money?Conversely those who are on pitiful salaries do not wish to share the info? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| happyinshangqiu wrote: |
The better places will pay for related qualifications - lawyers, accountants and whatever will get bog standard rates for their non-related qualifications, there is no reason why that should change.
The only people under threat from your proposed future view are other teachers with non-related qualifications. I would agree that if one wants to carry on teaching, they are best off investing in themselves by studying for related postgraduate qualifications instead of relying on a BA Poli-Sci degree. |
The problem with those who have advanced degrees in law, accounting, business admin, etc., and/or strong experience in any of those fields, is that they don't know how to market themselves---regardless of which country they choose to work in. Simply relying on the fact that they have a specialized degree and/or experience isn't enough if they expect to fully capitalize on their knowledge, skills, and abilities in a teaching situation. Case in point, for my first two EFL teaching jobs (in the Mid East), I ended up teaching Business English Communications as well as an English for Legal Purposes course, which weren't previously offered. I was able to personally create these customized courses by combining my legal background with my MA in Teaching---I was both the subject matter expert and the curriculum designer.
So unless those who hold a JD, MBA, CPA, or whatever, also have an additional degree in education/instruction, or prior experience teaching structured courses in their discipline, or even specific ideas and plans on how their expertise can best be utilized in an EFL/ESP situation, they'll likely have a hard time promoting their potential to prospective and even current employers. |
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Emp1
Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I'm not saying their qualification will help them - I'm saying they could make more by hustling in ESL entry level work than they can 'back home' using their qualification and the skills and experience they've developed in a much more demanding work environment.
That will not last. It can't last..you've got lots of people here earning big money for very easy work doing entry level stuff any idiot can do.
You need to be banking money now in preparation for when it's no longer possible to do so. Take a look at Korea...that is the future in China too. It might take 5 years, it might take 10...hell, it might take 30. But it will happen eventually. |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:10 am Post subject: |
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The utter lack of reading comprehension displayed in this thread is pathetic.
What Emp1 is saying is that the SAVINGS potential of HUSTLING (doing a uni job plus other side work) is better than that of many professional careers back home in the UK, or US.
He's right. When you consider income taxes, social insurance contributions, rent, transportation costs, student loans, and the cost of maintaining a professional appearance, hustling in China can win out.
For those professionals who can make it to the top of the pile, eventually their earnings will make up for any savings they missed out on early in their careers. But for a single guy in his 20's China offers a chance to have a quality of life that isn't miserable, while raking in savings.
If some consider that unethical, just remember that ethics are relative and nobody is being raped or murdered. |
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happyinshangqiu
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 279
Location: Has specialist qualifications AND local contacts.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
The utter lack of reading comprehension displayed in this thread is pathetic.
What Emp1 is saying is that the SAVINGS potential of HUSTLING (doing a uni job plus other side work) is better than that of many professional careers back home in the UK, or US.
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Yes, but what he hasn't really answered is why?
Why are these hot shot professionals going to upend the people already here teaching?
What is difference between someone with a law degree and someone with a BA in Poli Sci? Both are unrelated to teaching.
Sure, and as Nomad Soul said, a lawyer might be able to sell themselves on the back of their qualifications as a specialist - but how many jobs of that nature do you see floating around on the 'net? Sure, the chances increase once you are on the ground - but this picture of white collar professionals coming from wherever to hustle ESL classes in China - I can't see it myself. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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But go on, entertain me...exactly what steps does one follow to get this fictional 500,000RMB a year post-tax salary teaching English in China? How does one 'plan ahead' to ensure such an eventuality? The best international schools here are paying 30,000RMB a month so it's going to be funny to see you explain this one.
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To get the legally well-paid jobs in TESL you have specialise, Only stupid lazy people who didn't plan ahead would rely on doing a job that, as you've said repeatedly, any idiot can do. I don't work in China either but I notice you didn't call this guy out for being a liar who thinks you can make a million a year. Even if only half of that was illegal they'd still be making a legitimate 50 grand a year.
| Quote: |
| Wide ranging question with a wide ranging answer. Friends of mine, a couple both working in Chinese universities but employed by overseas universities with several lucrative earn well north of a million a year |
It's funny, this whole thread reminds me of a scene out of Casino/Goodfellas when Joe Pesci says something like 'If they had any guts they'd be out stealing for a living.' You guys think all think you're hard-working entrepreneur types 'hustling' for money babysitting kids but the fact of the matter is you wouldn't have the guts to do it in your home countries, would you? Because chances are you'd be caught and get a criminal record. Because those countries have developed fairer systems where people pay their share and vulnerable members of society get protected. So you educated guys with degrees from the most powerful countries in the world with the most democratic , least corruptible systems are willing to disregard all those principles and the people who fought for them just to make a fast buck in a country where they're not at all valued. And then you think you're cool and sophisticated for 'understanding' the local culture. It's kind of sad really. |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
It's funny, this whole thread reminds me of a scene out of Casino/Goodfellas when Joe Pesci says something like 'If they had any guts they'd be out stealing for a living.' You guys think all think you're hard-working entrepreneur types 'hustling' for money babysitting kids but the fact of the matter is you wouldn't have the guts to do it in your home countries, would you? Because chances are you'd be caught and get a criminal record. Because those countries have developed fairer systems where people pay their share and vulnerable members of society get protected. So you educated guys with degrees from the most powerful countries in the world with the most democratic , least corruptible systems are willing to disregard all those principles and the people who fought for them just to make a fast buck in a country where they're not at all valued. And then you think you're cool and sophisticated for 'understanding' the local culture. It's kind of sad really. |
Ain't nothing fast about these bucks, we have to earn them by taking some initiative in life. No, I don't think I'm cool or sophisticated, but I do think the deck is stacked against me at home because the government can force me to "pay my fair share" for all those "vulnerable members of society" and the ones that live in government subsidized housing, using government subsidized health care, talking on obamaphones, not to mention all the corporate and hedge fund tax breaks I'd be paying for. The rich don't pay their share. The poor don't pay their share. It's the middle class that bleeds. Here you stand a fighting chance.
As for breaking the law, yes teaching other jobs is breaking the law. So is jaywalking, buying pirated dvd's, and a host of other petty offenses. So?
Last edited by Mikeylikesit114 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ain't nothing fast about these bucks, we have to earn them by taking some initiative in life. No, I don't think I'm cool or sophisticated, but I do think the deck is stacked against me at home because the government can force me to "pay my fare share" for all those "vulnerable members of society" and the ones that live in government subsidized housing, using government subsidized health care, talking on obamaphones, not to mention all the corporate and hedge fund tax breaks I'd be paying for. The rich don't pay their share. The poor don't pay their share. It's the middle class that bleeds. Here you stand a fighting chance.
As for breaking the law, yes teaching other jobs is breaking the law. So is jaywalking, buying pirated dvd's, and a host of other petty offenses. So? |
Hey look, I know all the arguments. And you probably know the counter ones. The US is a democracy, vote them out if you donlt like them, two wrongs don't make a right etc.. etc...If your resistance to your current government involved any slight effort/inconvenience to yourself rather than direct financial benefit, I'm sure your arguments would have more credence.
I'm just saying in the past I think well-educated, well brought up Brits or Americans would have had a bit more integrity and belief in the right way of doing things. That's what sad IMO. I wonder how many of these people working illegally in China now were students a few years ago moaning about the Tories/Republicans not helping the needy etc... |
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RiverMystic
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| RW8677 wrote: |
| RiverMystic wrote: |
Wow, what a land of milk and honey China is! Why would anybody bother to work anywhere else when saving a billion a year is clearly the norm, according to this thread. Cash is falling from the skies in this place! The Lord giveth, but he doth not taketh away!
Then one looks at the job board and sees the typical salary is far lower than what most here are claiming as savings. Strange, that. |
Perhaps those who wish to talk about their salaries do so because they are not ashamed? Because they work a lot of hours and make good money?Conversely those who are on pitiful salaries do not wish to share the info? |
Yes, that's pretty much like I was vaguely im |
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RiverMystic
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| RW8677 wrote: |
| RiverMystic wrote: |
Wow, what a land of milk and honey China is! Why would anybody bother to work anywhere else when saving a billion a year is clearly the norm, according to this thread. Cash is falling from the skies in this place! The Lord giveth, but he doth not taketh away!
Then one looks at the job board and sees the typical salary is far lower than what most here are claiming as savings. Strange, that. |
Perhaps those who wish to talk about their salaries do so because they are not ashamed? Because they work a lot of hours and make good money?Conversely those who are on pitiful salaries do not wish to share the info? |
Yes, that's pretty much like I was vaguely implying. It's like a willy measuring contest. Everyone is exaggerating the truth, while large numbers dare not reveal the underwhelming truth. Nobody is willing to go under the ruler verification test.
BTW, I get 20+K for 6 hours of face to face teaching/week. I'm huge in these parts. My CV is positively bulging, with advanced quals which have the admin heavy panting, and I'm not even trying. |
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Emp1
Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| happyinshangqiu wrote: |
| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
The utter lack of reading comprehension displayed in this thread is pathetic.
What Emp1 is saying is that the SAVINGS potential of HUSTLING (doing a uni job plus other side work) is better than that of many professional careers back home in the UK, or US.
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Yes, but what he hasn't really answered is why?
Why are these hot shot professionals going to upend the people already here teaching?
What is difference between someone with a law degree and someone with a BA in Poli Sci? Both are unrelated to teaching.
Sure, and as Nomad Soul said, a lawyer might be able to sell themselves on the back of their qualifications as a specialist - but how many jobs of that nature do you see floating around on the 'net? Sure, the chances increase once you are on the ground - but this picture of white collar professionals coming from wherever to hustle ESL classes in China - I can't see it myself. |
You just don't get it.
It's not necessarily that accountants, lawyers etc are going to fly over to China and ditch their careers. Rather, I'm comparing the remuneration of real jobs, requiring actual hard work, real qualifications, and experience in an actual demanding work environment, with the remuneration of China ESL. Common sense would dictate the job requiring more qualifications, more experience, more intelligence, and increased demands would also translate to a (much) higher remuneration than some idiot who would be flipping burgers back home teaching kids 'my name is...'.
Right now, it doesn't. The ESL'er, providing he's not a lazy do-gooder and knows his market value, can take the same home after taxes and rent as the accountant, and save much more thanks to China costing less to live in for everything else. This is a guy who would most likely be stacking shelves, flipping burgers, or working some menial admin office job back home. Conclusion - ESL remuneration in China and the savings potential is artificially high. One day people will wake up to this. It will take a while, but it will happen, so you need to be squeezing every last yuan out of the Chinese now while they're still under the delusion that 200-250rmb an hour is a fair amount for a white guy to have a chat with them.
[quote=bograt]To get the legally well-paid jobs in TESL you have specialise, Only stupid lazy people who didn't plan ahead would rely on doing a job that, as you've said repeatedly, any idiot can do. I don't work in China either but I notice you didn't call this guy out for being a liar who thinks you can make a million a year. Even if only half of that was illegal they'd still be making a legitimate 50 grand a year. [/quote]
If you don't work in China any income comparison is irrelevant. Yeah, you can match my hustling income (and even exceed it) by just working one job if you move to Saudi Arabia. But then you have to live in Saudi Arabia, don't you? Stick to China comparisons.
The reason I didn't call the other guy out was because he said 'overseas' university, which means a western standard salary. He also said that's couple, meaning they'd be earning 500,000 each. That does sound high to me to be honest, but I'm not familiar with PhD/Professor level pay back home...if they're matching his salary in the west then maybe it's possible, but like I say, I don't know the payscale. But this guy isn't going to be teaching ESL like some Chinese public uni hack, so it's got as much relevance as saying the MD of Goldman Sachs pulled in 100 million USD last year.
| Quote: |
It's funny, this whole thread reminds me of a scene out of Casino/Goodfellas when Joe Pesci says something like 'If they had any guts they'd be out stealing for a living.' You guys think all think you're hard-working entrepreneur types 'hustling' for money babysitting kids but the fact of the matter is you wouldn't have the guts to do it in your home countries, would you? Because chances are you'd be caught and get a criminal record. Because those countries have developed fairer systems where people pay their share and vulnerable members of society get protected. So you educated guys with degrees from the most powerful countries in the world with the most democratic , least corruptible systems are willing to disregard all those principles and the people who fought for them just to make a fast buck in a country where they're not at all valued. And then you think you're cool and sophisticated for 'understanding' the local culture. It's kind of sad really. |
Is this you with your weird argument about how it's moral and just to pay your taxes or something? I let it slide last time figuring you must be drunk or I'd misinterpreted what you were saying.
Lol if you think anyone should lose sleep at night over not paying tax to the PRC. Here's what would happen if you told your part time employer to withhold taxes...he'd say sure...he'd pay you less...but then he wouldn't remit the 'taxes' to the government, he'd put them in his pocket instead. Even a lot of universities don't remit taxes. In addition to that, the PRC is a corrupt establishment and don't provide much of anything in the way of public services so it's not like you're getting anything back from your payments like you are back home. No social security, no healthcare, and as you're a foreigner they don't owe you anything. Why exactly should anyone care about paying tax when they don't get anything back?
FWIW - I wouldn't do it in my home country because surprise surprise, in a country where everyone speaks English, there's no demand for ESL teachers. Not paying taxes to the UK government would come fairly low down on the list of reasons not to do this...plenty of people get paid cash in hand in the UK (mostly tradesmen, such as electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc) and you can bet all the income isn't reported to HMRC. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Lol if you think anyone should lose sleep at night over not paying tax to the PRC. Here's what would happen if you told your part time employer to withhold taxes...he'd say sure...he'd pay you less...but then he wouldn't remit the 'taxes' to the government, he'd put them in his pocket instead. Even a lot of universities don't remit taxes. In addition to that, the PRC is a corrupt establishment and don't provide much of anything in the way of public services so it's not like you're getting anything back from your payments like you are back home. No social security, no healthcare, and as you're a foreigner they don't owe you anything. Why exactly should anyone care about paying tax when they don't get anything back? |
That was kind of my point. Educated people coming from countries which have made a real effort to create a fairer society, taking advantage of a country which hasn't, for their personal gain. It's a bit sad. I realize trying to get the concepts of personal integrity and doing the right thing across to someone who took out loans he has no intention of paying back before skipping abroad is a bit of a waste of time but it might resonate with some on here
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FWIW - I wouldn't do it in my home country because surprise surprise, in a country where everyone speaks English, there's no demand for ESL teachers. Not paying taxes to the UK government would come fairly low down on the list of reasons not to do this...plenty of people get paid cash in hand in the UK (mostly tradesmen, such as electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc) and you can bet all the income isn't reported to HMRC. |
This is the argument of a child. Besides which it isn't true. there are plenty of TESL jobs in the UK, such as teaching pre-university courses for foreign students, but again lazy and stupid people probably wouldn't be aware of them or have taken the trouble to do the qualifications they require. |
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Emp1
Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
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| Lol if you think anyone should lose sleep at night over not paying tax to the PRC. Here's what would happen if you told your part time employer to withhold taxes...he'd say sure...he'd pay you less...but then he wouldn't remit the 'taxes' to the government, he'd put them in his pocket instead. Even a lot of universities don't remit taxes. In addition to that, the PRC is a corrupt establishment and don't provide much of anything in the way of public services so it's not like you're getting anything back from your payments like you are back home. No social security, no healthcare, and as you're a foreigner they don't owe you anything. Why exactly should anyone care about paying tax when they don't get anything back? |
That was kind of my point. Educated people coming from countries which have made a real effort to create a fairer society, taking advantage of a country which hasn't, for their personal gain. It's a bit sad. I realize trying to get the concepts of personal integrity and doing the right thing across to someone who took out loans he has no intention of paying back before skipping abroad is a bit of a waste of time but it might resonate with some on here
| Quote: |
FWIW - I wouldn't do it in my home country because surprise surprise, in a country where everyone speaks English, there's no demand for ESL teachers. Not paying taxes to the UK government would come fairly low down on the list of reasons not to do this...plenty of people get paid cash in hand in the UK (mostly tradesmen, such as electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc) and you can bet all the income isn't reported to HMRC. |
This is the argument of a child. Besides which it isn't true. there are plenty of TESL jobs in the UK, such as teaching pre-university courses for foreign students, but again lazy and stupid people probably wouldn't be aware of them or have taken the trouble to do the qualifications they require. |
It's not 'taking advantage', unless you consider that all Chinese people are 'taking advantage' of the system. Do you honestly believe that a part time employer would remit taxes if you told him to?
People all over the world do their utmost to minimise their tax bill. A good example in the UK is highly paid people setting up a company, with themselves as the sole employee, and their 'contracting' their services out to another company. The client then pays the shell company, and the shell company pays the sole 'employee' the wages, but doing this leads to a lesser tax bill as there's no national insurance to pay and the employee can control how much he 'makes' in any given year (i.e. only paying himself up to the point that higher rate tax will start, amassing the rest of the cash in the company, and then when he stops working, liquidating the company so he only pays 18% capital gains tax rather than the 40% higher rate tax). There's nothing immoral about trying to pay as little tax as possible.
And for what it's worth, there's nothing wrong with taking out loans then skipping the country either. The banks have enough money, they can afford it. They've been ripping people off for years, it feels good to get one over on them from time to time. You're clearly the type of guy who just prefers to get bent over though, and providing it's 'legal' you won't do shit about it.
| bograt wrote: |
| This is the argument of a child. Besides which it isn't true. there are plenty of TESL jobs in the UK, such as teaching pre-university courses for foreign students, but again lazy and stupid people probably wouldn't be aware of them or have taken the trouble to do the qualifications they require. |
There are exactly 0 TEFL jobs in the UK that pay 200-250RMB an hour after taxes. Most people in TEFL in the UK are on zero hours contracts earning about 90RMB per class. The private lessons that you're alluding too simply don't exist - the customer themselves is rarely paying to be educated, it's mostly the government paying on the basis of helping them learn the language and 'integrate' into society. There's no way random foreigners are paying 200rmb for some white guy to chat to their kid for an hour.
If you actually believe there's the earning potential for TEFL in the UK that there is in China, you must have been dropped on your head multiple times as a kid. Sorry, but it's true. Only a complete spastic would think teaching TEFL in the UK is a good career move. |
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