Job Discussion Forums

Browncoat · Joined: 29 Apr 2015 Posts: 4

Recently a uni made me a good offer, however the sample contract was lacking in some particulars (paid winter holiday? who pays utilities? etc.). My contact was happy to answer all my questions about the missing particulars (yes paid winter holiday, uni will pay utilities). But when I asked if he would include them in the contract, I was told the contract is the standard contract and can't be changed until a new edition is issued.

What do you think? Is it common for unis in China to offer contracts with implicit benefits? Does whether you can trust them or not depend on the reputation of the uni ? (I can say I respect this one more than many others-- they actually interviewed me and checked my references instead of hitting the reply button with a job offer).

Thanks all!

Non Sequitur · Joined: 23 May 2010 Posts: 4724 Location: China

Best you can do before you arrive and can eyeball them is keep the email trail and produce it when you get into conversation.
It's when they introduce downside things at the China-side discussions that things get hairy.
You don't mention your due diligence i.e. have you spoken to current or former FTs?
Assume you negotiating a Sept start?
If so you have time to do some more checking.

Deats · Joined: 02 Jan 2015 Posts: 503

In our first uni job we were promised to teach English major groups of around 30. After 1 semester we were stuck with groups of 100 non-English major students that we only ever saw once - for an oral English class. When we complained and said it is not what we agreed to teach we were told 'Where does it say that in the contract?' We had similar discussions over other issues which had been verbally agreed but never written into the contract. We were always told to refer to the contract when it suited them.

Over many things the uni will never put it into the contract either a) because they can't put everything in the contract or b) because they know full well they can't honour their promises.

Anything financial MUST be in the contract. If they won't put in that your utilities are paid, then this is unacceptable. As for winter holidays, maybe this just comes as standard? The latter however you should insist on, otherwise find another job where they are willing to be upfront and honest with you - there are plenty more unis out there! Having said that, if the uni is offering WAY MORE than the usual 6,000RMB then it may work out better to sign the contract regardless. Depends on what you are being offered.

Son of Bud Powell · Joined: 04 Mar 2015 Posts: 179 Location: Since 2003

If it isn't put in writing, it was never promised.

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

Didah · Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:25 am Post subject:

Greetings,

What I found with employment contracts in China is that they are not worth the paper they are printed on. From my experience, getting Chinese school management to specifically agree to anything or modify the contract is like nailing Jello to the wall (again, this is my personal experience). The contract is meant to protect the school while they are screwing you and the school through the contract is not interested in protecting you or your perceived "rights." I have seen teachers cite the contract to address a grievance and then the Chinese management cites another part of the contract to negate the whole argument. Don't forget that the "official" version of the contract is in the Chinese language and can vary greatly from what they show you in the English version. So, the proposed amendments to the contract in English have no legal standing (No, I am not a lawyer, however, at the bottom of the Chinese contracts I have signed has been the disclaimer that the official version recognized in China is the one written in Chinese).

Even at the "prestigious" international school I taught at, the conditions kept changing and the management kept hiding behind the contract in justifying the changes. What I also found is that this particular school kept nickel and diming me to death for all kinds of fees that were not spelled out in the contract. In my years of being off and on in China, I have personally found that the Chinese management takes great pleasure out of ripping off foreign teachers and workers. I always got the feeling from them that if they did screw you over, it was your fault for not catching it -- shame on you. And, even if you do, they won't do anything about it because there is no recourse for you in China no matter what the foreign teachers' union would have you think (I admire what they are trying to do, however, they are powerless). If you do get all these concessions and even if they are written down, you can throw that whole contract out the window when you get to China because there is nothing you can do about it when they change the rules, move the goal posts and pull the rug out from under you because you are at their mercy. Just make sure that you have enough money to leave if things go very bad. There is noting worse than feeling like you are stuck in a really bad situation. Remember, China is not the employer of last resort. Buyer Beware!

Good luck, keep vigilant and have an escape plan when it all goes south.

thechangling · Joined: 11 Apr 2013 Posts: 276

The ultimate power we have is simply to walk out if 'negotiations' over contract obligations don't progress. I've done it twice and will do it again if necessary. I don't care about all the moralistic B.S some people seem to harbour about letting the students down blah blah blah. Being nickel and dimed gets punished by me. 3 strokes and I'm outa there!

Didah · Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:44 am Post subject:

I agree thechangling.

We do have the ultimate power. When things became intolerable for me, I walked away. Why should I care about the students when the management doesn't as evidenced by the way they treat teachers and students for that matter. Even the students don't really care and will throw a teacher under the bus at the drop of a hat over grades or other issues. I like the three strikes rule. In a lot of schools, that is reached rather quickly.

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

Deats · Joined: 02 Jan 2015 Posts: 503

I think people should quit if they are pushed too far. I did it once in England and I've just done it in Russia. There are certain things I will be unhappy about, but put up with. Then there are things that I will not tolerate. If you don't pay me as promised (I don't care if I'm paid late, I'm talking about not paid at all or paid less than agreed upon) then I will leave. I will give the school a chance to rectify their mistake (deliberate mistake) and inform them that if they don't, then I will quit. Usually this sorts the problem out. If they think I'm bluffing, they are in for a nasty surprise. Once I have said I'm 100% quitting it doesn't matter how much money you offer me, I can no longer work for someone I don't trust. I'd like to think I'm very loyal (sometimes too loyal for my own good), but there is always that line between employer and employee that should never be crossed.

I'm in a nice position that I have plenty of money in the bank and will happily work anywhere in the world, so I will always have other good job opportunities. This flexibility is what gives me the advantage over (crooked) employers. I don't need them, like many other EFLers do. Whilst I enjoy being settled in one place, I am a nomad at heart, so moving on has and never will be a problem.

AKChina · Joined: 29 Apr 2015 Posts: 52

Re: late payment. It's no big issue if it's just a day or two. More than that and I'd just refuse to work until I am paid.

I mean the boss knows the salaries of his employees, and knows what date they need to be paid by, so there's no excuse for any late payment really. Unless of course the company doesn't have the money - in which case I'm not going to work as it's likely they'll be going bust soon and I won't get it anyway.

And the boss who is just paying late because he's a dick (seriously - what other possible reasons are there for late payment besides near bankruptcy or general douchbaggery?)...not having anyone teach his classes will get him to move his fat ass to the bank.

Deats · Joined: 02 Jan 2015 Posts: 503

It can just be incompetence.

Or cash flow, or douchebaggery. Or maybe due to holidays

I give them a couple of days to sort it out. It's never gone beyond this.

Markness · Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 738 Location: Chengdu

I wouldn't budge unless they put it in on the contract. How hard is it to write it in? Takes like 2 seconds. "Waiting for the new edition", lol... pending rip-off. Be careful... I'm just jaded because I have yet to have an employer who follows the rules, there is always something they try to skimp out on (even if you are very qualified). Holidays are not something they can muck around with. It can make the differences in 9 months of pay versus 12. If you don't like it then they will try to even be even bigger jerks and try to hold you ransom with your release letter and all that other jazz.

Do as the others have mentioned and make sure to contact the other FTs if something seems fishy. Never trust them, they will only honor the contract (and barely do so at times). I've been burned by this and will never take any for granted anymore from future employers. Make sure everything is crystal clear on those contracts to save you from a year of hell.

Markness · Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 738 Location: Chengdu

hdeth · Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 583

At my first job there was nothing about summer/winter pay in the contract. The recruiter told me it was covered under "holiday pay" but I insisted they add in a clause about the vacations. They added them in to the appendix. Honestly don't think it made any sort of difference but I was a bit paranoid about my first job in China so insisted on it.