Job Discussion Forums

[Deats]

£5000 savings in 8 years is pathetic. I'm not sure why you think this is good esl_prof? It's about £600 a year if he left uni 8 years ago. You can save £600 IN A MONTH in China.

The guy says he can't even get a job stacking shelves (which pays very little). He's on the very bottom rung of the ladder in his own country. His life will be WAY better if he goes and works in China. Less hours, more savings, higher social standing. It's a no brainer.

It's always the people with MA's telling everyone they need more qualifications or they can't make it in the world of EFL. It's utter BS. And quite frankly slightly tiresome. By all means people should explain that the very top jobs with mega bucks are only available to those highly qualified teachers. But there is still plenty of room for unqualified people to make a good living. And sure it helps to have a degree but it isn't necessary. I have met many ESL teachers with BA's, MA's, PHD's who were totally incompetent teachers. Likewise I know one guy in a Chinese kindergarten who worked there for 4 years, barely passed high school and was loved and adored. When he left he got all kinds of gifts including an iPhone. And he left with a very healthy bank account.

To teach kindergarten in China you just need to be energetic and friendly. Anyone can repeat 'apple, apple, apple' 'boy, boy, boy' or whatever.

OP people on this board are often very negative and quick to tell you what you CAN'T do. Rarely are they willing to tell you what you CAN do.

My guess is you will earn around £800 a month in your first job. For China this is a lot of money. You can easily save £5,000 a year from this.

Start applying for some jobs and see what happens.

Make sure you ask the question about your visa - you MUST get a Z visa (work visa). Don't work for anyone that won't offer you this.

[spiral78]

No-one has suggested that the OP needs an MA
Just that his options are limited with a 2-year degree, and that they'll stay limited (and possibly narrow even further as more countries tighten up legal requirements) unless he can finish a full degree somehow.

Back to the original points: continental European countries don't legally require EFL teachers to be 4-year degree holders. For this job market, you need a CELTA or equivalent cert (not online), and you'll need to keep in mind that most other newbies on the job market will have a degree, as will the majority of your students (the majority of entry level jobs are with adults - qualified locals do most of the kiddie teaching here, with some exceptions)! This means that you must come across as highly professional and reliable - and then back that up with solid performance.

Timing is critical; jobs are usually Sept/Oct through June, so ideally pick a country, come to take a CELTA or equivalent course in the country where you want to teach in August, and hit the ground running immediately after. In this case, taking a cert course in the country where you want to teach is a good idea, as they can give you useful contacts to local employers.

[esl_prof]

[Deats]

Spiral78 - where did I say you needed an MA? I said:

'It's always the people with MA's telling everyone they need more qualifications or they can't make it in the world of EFL.'

More qualifications can mean: a BA, an MA, PHD, TEFL, CELTA, DELTA etc etc

Sprial78 and esl_prof - What do you think his chances are in his home country with his education? He has said he doesn't want to go back to uni because he didn't enjoy it. He has £5,000 to his name and a 4 year degree will cost £36,000 in tuition fees + housing, food books etc. He should budget probably more than £60,000 for all this. Should he rob a bank?

There are many entry level jobs in China paying over £800 a month. If you believe some of the ads that say you don't need a degree then there are jobs paying over £1,200 a month. My wife and I lived on a COMBINED total of £200 a month for our first couple of years and then we really 'splashed out' and spent £300 a month for the next couple of years. This was going to our local western bar a couple of times a week, eating out 3 or 4 times a week, etc etc. And this was for TWO people. You can't just half living costs as couples spend less, but it gives you an idea of how cheap it is in China.

I guess Richard Branson and Steve Jobs are both useless individuals who could not teach anyone anything as neither had a university degree. There are plenty of other people who didn't graduate from uni and had great success in life. The working environment and academic environment are two massively different places. Some academics are utterly hopeless in the workplace, whilst some dropouts flourish.

(I have a degree and TEFL btw, but I don't think it's fair to think that people without these can't be teachers - especially to younger age groups in China)

[nomad soul]

[Deats]

Please can you link where it says you MUST have a degree to work in China.

Some paranoid folks got tired of looking over their shoulder so left China... hmm, ok. Why were they paranoid? Did they KNOW the school had faked a degree? Otherwise, how did they get into China in the first place if it is supposedly impossible?

How are so many legit Chinese companies offering direct hire jobs to people without degrees? Not to mention the recruiters who also find jobs for people without degrees.

It's the same as the people who are saying that non-natives can't legally get jobs in China. Well my wife is Russian and she always gets her visa legally.

The vast majority told me you can only get your Z visa in your home country... not true. I'm getting mine in a third country and did so in the past also.

I believe you told me without an MA I could not work in a public school in UAE - then I got offered an interview with only my BA.

I am constantly told how uni jobs in China pay 6k. Weird how my contract is for over 11k, as is my wife's.

I was told I must have a medical exam to get my Chinese visa... odd that I didn't need one.

On the Russia forum one guy is insisting you need to pass a Russian test to get a work visa... again utter BS.

The list of misinformation could go on and on.

At times this forum can be an excellent source of knowledge. At other times it is horrific and will shatter people's legitimate dreams with all of the incorrect nonsense that gets posted.

And you state that people need degrees when their own country requires locals to have degrees. a) this isn't always true b) you are describing uni jobs, not teaching the alphabet to 2 year old kids. There is a BIG difference.

[Sashadroogie]

In fairness to the lad on the Russian forum saying you need a Russian language test to get a work visa there are many otherwise sensible people in Moscow saying the same nonsensical thing. Rumours like these tend to take on a life of their own. a forum like Dave's should only ever be used as a rough reference for further enquiry, and not as a source in itself...

[nomad soul]

[suphanburi]

SAFEA says:

(3) Where the invited object is the ordinary foreign teacher of language he shall have gained the bachelor or higher degree and professional training on language teaching as well as some amount of language teaching experience.

*Complete Guide to Working in China
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, PRC
State Administration of Foreign Experts Affairs

Short answer is that you have a degree, a TEFL cert and some classroom experience.

If you are missing something and you have a "Z" visa and required permits as a foreign language teacher then someone faked some documents on your behalf.

The risk is yours to bear if it ever sees the light of day because you can be pretty darn sure that the Chinese national who faked the documents and paid the bribes to get you in won't be prosecuted.

.

[Deats]

This law is clearly not followed - ever. Also, there are regional laws so not every province in China has the same requirements. So I find this (presumably national) law to be rather odd, as provincial laws are used for hiring throughout the country.

I would say the vast majority of teachers who head to China do so as their first job and with zero teaching experience. Are you telling me tens of thousands of people have had their resumes changed to say they have teaching experience? And all of them can be deported or locked up?

Furthermore many teachers don't have TEFL. It is only required in some provinces to gain a visa. Definitely not all of China. Again, are you telling me all these people without TEFL's have had fake ones made and are at risk of deportation or being locked up?

I don't believe that every place is faking degrees, work experience and TEFL certificates, it's just not true.

Saying that you will be in trouble because somebody faked something about you, without your knowledge or consent, is utterly ludicrous.

Sorry, but anyone reading this post that you will be in trouble without 1) degree, 2) TEFL and 3) experience will be incorrectly scared away from working in China.

How very sad.

[spiral78]

[nomad soul]

[suphanburi]

[esl_prof]

[Deats]

Chinese Z visa laws clearly change by province. There is no set national law that prevails. This is common with most laws in China. Much like in the US or even UK.

Some clear differences that PROVE there isn't one fixed law:

1) Some provinces need TEFL, some don't.

2) Some require an FBI background check, some require a local background check, some require you to merely tick a form saying you have no criminal background.

3) Some provinces require you to apply in your home country, some don't.

4)Some require a scanned and signed contract to apply for the work permit, others require the original.

There are other examples, but whatever I say the 'experts' on here will ignore. Even though these 'experts' 1) Don't work in China 2) Don't live in China 3) Possibly never have lived or worked in China and base all their assumptions on hearsay.

nomad_soul - on your Zvisa application you TELL THE TRUTH. This is why I know you don't need a degree - because I have friends who don't have a degree or TEFL and got a LEGAL Z visa and didn't lie on their application.

To get your work permit the gvnt takes a month to run background checks. Do you really think 75%+ of people who aren't meeting this criteria magically slip through the net and get illegal visas. Nonsense. In China, like most countries, there is leeway. If China only issued visas to those that met this criteria then more than half the teachers would not be there. they already can't fill all the positions. There is more demand than supply.

Suphanburi - you have first hand experience to KNOW that the vast majority of Chinese employers are faking degrees, certificates etc.... No, I didn't think so. Just because you are Thai doesn't mean you are an expert on all things Asian. I'm British but I don't know the complexities of Cypriot work laws. I'd like to know what makes you qualified to know every provincial law in China about foreign workers!?

And from what you say, people can simply lie about you in the East and even though you have concrete proof you are innocent, you go to jail anyway. hahahaha. deluded. People can PROVE they applied for a visa and job and didn't provide any illegal documents. There are records to show this. Keep your emails. Ask the gvnt to check your application form etc etc.

"More sad are those thousands who get burned every year."

Now I know you are deluded. If thousands were getting burned every year, it would be all over the internet. Please find me a dozen examples... oh right, you can't, cos they only exist in your head. Thousands... chortle, chortle.

The Chinese gvnt has more important things to do than chase after a couple of EFL teachers... who are there legally anyway, according to provincial law.

esl_prof - You can get student loans. But think about it. He takes a 60k loan, which is about $100,000. 1) He will probably drop out as he doesn't like uni. 2) Even if he graduates, how long will it take him to pay off? He saves £5k a year, for the first few years. Then he gets a better job and saves let's say £8k a year. Take into account interest rates AND some of this disposable income he will probably spend on travel etc. A conservative estimate would be that he pays it off in 10, but more likely 15 years. That puts him probably around 45. On top of this take into account his loss of earnings during his 4 year course. Another £20k down. So by 45 he can have 0 money OR he could have around £60,000 saved. I know which option I would prefer. I know which gives him the best future.

Finally a 'high paying' job in China is 30,000RMB+ a month. For a qualified teacher in an international high school. The teacher would need to teach a specific subject and have years worth of experience in their home country. I never said he'd land a job like this. 'Low paying' jobs in uni pay 6,000RMB a month and have very few hours (but I doubt he'd get one of these immediately with his lack of experience). Low paying kindergartens will pay 8,000RMB a month and after a few years experience he should either get a pay rise or could find a higher paying job. His hours will be more than a uni, but so will his pay.

This isn't even mentioning his potential to teach privately - nobody asks what education you have when taking on private students. That's an additional £20 an hour ($30).

Saving money in China is incredibly easy, even without an education.

EDIT: Also, he must first get accepted into a uni. This isn't a given. It's dependent upon past results and if he only got on a 2 year course before, then why would he be accepted for a 4 year teaching course now? HIGHLY unlikely.