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Modals
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll aver that the canonization of the term alignment infers a word salad cataclysm of unholy lycanthropy in THE cranial biblios, but that commenting to the veracity of *an other's* collocations is podiatry OF comparison under the lowest common liturgical.

Now that we've cleared that up (thanks to my perfectly clear phrasing) we can now deal with the meat of the matter.

I was just leafing though books that provide things called "grammar explanations in L2" (Rolling Eyes), and it's only down at the level of say Murphy's Essential/Basic that the learner is really spared much terminology and the focus more on just examples, simple differences in verb phrase structuring (e.g. positive versus negative forms (i.e. canonical versus non-canonical clauses)) etc. Once you start hitting the intermediate level upwards though the reference books start getting "harder". Don't believe me? Take a look in common ELT grammars like Swan or even the COBUILD English Grammar (which legend has it is easier) and you'll see that what that nice Anglo-Link lady croons is a smooth straightforward conniption-free picnic in comparison. So again, she is in a way true to the company name in arguably providing a link of sorts "between the levels". (Uh oh, I can sense a "skill in, indeed need for, explaining grammar?" discussion surfacing here though).

BTW I think we're all aware that grammar explanations in and of themselves or "alone" (only minimally-contextualized) do not maketh a full English breakfast communicative lesson, and are ultimately supplementary to a balanced, well-designed diet of green eggs and ham and course of study. Not that intelligent students can't extrapolate from nice succinct explanations (I'm not sure that the clip quite qualifies as that though).


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote:
ESL has co-opted pedagogy to suit its own needs. Sure, modals are taught, but "modal verbs" are NOT taught.
I think it's an interesting point, though I'm unsure why apologies are in order.

Modals are a class of auxillary verbs, defective, express condition, and are often doubled up in the South. Before I was taught auxillary, the term was helping and that covered just about everything.

To be fair (after my "horrid" parody above of your earlier stuff), that there's a pretty good post, Buravirgil! I didn't see the additional posts until after I'd posted mine. Cool Wink Smile
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil halfway down pg 2 wrote:
There is no "mob". Only four members were compelled to comment to Scot's torture.

I think what you meant to say was that only two members somehow felt compelled to comment overwhelmingly negatively on a YouTube clip and in the process mischaracterize it as an actual bums-on-seats full deluxe classroom lesson when it plainly wasn't. Still waiting to see how they'd present modals, by the way!

Quote:
What Fluffy calls "rule-mongering" I'd term as prescriptive, as I'm sure Fluffy has before. Citing any positive rating on YouTube is hardly evidence of its efficacy for many reasons.

The efficacy of the rating, or of the prescription, or...of the "lesson"? (Return to start of post)


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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CANDLES



Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 605
Location: Wandering aimlessly.....

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

could I please retract my previous thread? REQUEST..

would it be possible to retract my previous thread?

can I ...............?

should I retract.........?

might I have the possibility to.......?

Very Happy
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

F-...Twisted Evil Razz Wink
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CANDLES



Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 605
Location: Wandering aimlessly.....

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a MODAL VERB beginning with F ? Rolling Eyes Mad
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I thought you were trying to save the critical posters a bit of work by posting a fragment of a potential presentation or lesson plan for them. Sorry for the low grade I awarded to it. Laughing Although to be totally honest I'm not sure what the point of your post really was at all! Cool
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CANDLES



Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 605
Location: Wandering aimlessly.....

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the grade...that actually sums up my ' lesson plans'! Hate them! Evil or Very Mad
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lesson plans ?

hahahahahaha

Best one I saw was our mature colleague with a PhD in French Literature. He wrote out in longhand the text of his entire lesson. Needless to say Teacher Talking Time was 99.73%

He did the job for years, but soon gave up on 20-page lesson plans.
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sunrader



Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:


Modals are a class of auxillary verbs, defective, express condition, and are often doubled up in the South. Before I was taught auxillary, the term was helping and that covered just about everything.


What doubling up? Example, please.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunrader wrote:
What doubling up? Example, please.
I might could oblige you with a simple google search, but don't know if'n yer incredulity is genuine.
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sunrader



Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
sunrader wrote:
What doubling up? Example, please.
I might could oblige you with a simple google search, but don't know if'n yer incredulity is genuine.


It's a legitimate question asking what you think a double modal is. This is a well-known debate, but it doesn't turn up more than one debatable example, as far as I know. So, yes, I was wondering what you are referring to. If it's only the one you've used, then it is as I'd expect. I'd argue that "might" is not a modal in this one instance of apparent "doubling." It's a synonym for "maybe." Do you have another example?
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
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Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/multiple-modals
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sunrader



Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/multiple-modals


Do they all center around "might"? Nevermind. Not trying to start anything. I was just curious if you had any other kinds of examples. I've followed this debate for a while and it seems reasonable to assume that if Southerners did, in fact, double modals, then we'd see instances of other modals doubled. I think this one is an example of "might" being used as "maybe," which would make it an adverb, wouldn't it? Not an expert, anyway, just interested.


Last edited by sunrader on Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the link:
    Multiple modals most commonly have might or may as their first modal (Di Paolo 1989), though this is not always the case; examples like could might have been observed with might or may second, and other examples like should oughta contain neither might nor may. The most prevalent multiple modals are might could, might can, and might would (Mishoe and Montgomery 1994).
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