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Lyov · Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 43

Sorry

. I know no one likes talking about politics too much but as an American I want to know whats going on.

Let me make list.

1. Bush is a criminal thug who has stolen the presidency and sucked America into an illegal war and blah blah blah, I think most of this know this and accept it.

2. Michael Moore's 911 comes out. Great! a very good movie that opens up a lot of people's eyes against the Bush Administration. It seems now that most Americans will not vote for Bush. Yea for Michael Moore.

3. Bush and Co. drops the suggestion that the elections might be cancelled??!! if there is another terrorist attack. (God knows one of those aren't hard to come by when you have the connections)

4. Even if the elections aren't cancelled the Dems have gone completely right wing with total support for the war and further wars of aggression.

So no matter who wins or steals this election America will not stop blowing people up. The poor will continue to get poorer and the rich richer until there has to be some kind of great big explosion. It almost seems better if Bush cancels the elections and declares himself dictator supreme then the American people will realize they have to do something and there will be a revolution (yes I said it). If Kerry wins Americans can shove their heads back in the sand for a few more years until the pressures prove too strong. Neither canidate is a good one, I don't believe anything real will change and most if not all the bad will continue.

I just can't see a good option for how all this is going to turn out.

Now I'm asking for opinions from the international community. May it be an open and good debate.

Lyov

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

I finally saw "Fahrenheit 9/11" and most of what he showed us confirmed things I already knew. Now, many conservative Republicans will say that a lot of things in the movie were distorted or made-up or slanted. But if only HALF the things in this movie (esp. about Bush) were true, then surely everyone could agree that the wrong person is "leading" our country. Heck, if only TEN PERCENT of the movie were true! I mean, what is okay and not okay to Bush supporters?

Claiming WMD as a basis for war is okay, but manipulating a war for profit (Halliburton) is not?

Fixing an election with brother Jeb is okay, but throwing our nation back into a huge deficit is not?

Being in cahoots with the Bin Ladens is okay, but not being able to capture Osama is not?

Again, just as anybody (Al Franken, Bill O'Reilly, etc.) who leans way to the left or right, you have to take some of these things with a grain of salt. But surely the American public knows we've been duped and it's time to get rid of Bush and let the American soldiers come home!

justcolleen · Joined: 07 Jan 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Egypt, baby!

Gotta give Michal Moore credit where credit is due, he's made voter apathy swing from "cool" to "uncool" pretty doggone quick.

***********

Friend/Family: "So, Colleen, what would you like for your birthday this year?"

Colleen (as she pulls out a voter registration form): "This."

************

Try it. It works.

Colleen

GF · Joined: 08 Jun 2003 Posts: 238 Location: Tallinn

1: No, I don't accept your first point and neither do many others. That is why Bush and Kerry are basically neck and neck at the moment.

2: How did Bush steal the election? He won within the framework of US law. Are you going to cry out about the popular vote? Well, that's the system whether you like it or not. And notice that even the most hardcore Democrats are NOT trying to change the electoral system. Did Bush play dirty? He sure did and Gore matched him step for step. Neither was better than the other. If you don't agree, go back and read the daily reports (The Miami Herald) to see the nastiness of both sides.

3: Your second point is not borne out by any of the most recent opinion polls.

4: No one said anything about canceling elections. The word used was postpone and there is a hell of a big difference between the two. The word you used is much more inflammatory and misleading.

5: What is a war of aggression? What is a preemptive war? If England and France had had some balls back in 1938/39 (before the invasion of Poland), they would have launched a 'war of aggression' against Hitler and saved 40-50 million innocent lives.

6: Your idea about a revolution in America borders on fantasy.

Communist Smurf · Joined: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 330 Location: San Francisco

lajzar · Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Posts: 647 Location: Saitama-ken, Japan

Lyov · Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 43

My God how this debate came and went. Now I realize that opions are wildly divergant on this subject but I say nothing without backing and I will present now.

Bush steals election http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/apr2001/flor-a20.shtml - 17k - 20 Apr 2001

Bush drags america into an illegal war
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/lawy-m22.shtml - 9k - 22 Mar 2003 (This is just one, there are really hundreds)

Michael Moore sways voters of both leanings
http://www.notinourname.net/troops/fahrenheit-soldiers-12jul04.htm

Bush takes steps to postpone (or cancel) elections
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/elec-j13.shtml

Kerry is leaning way to the right
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/dnc-j31.shtml

Yes now you can see my leanings, if that makes me the devil then so be it, but I ask that the articles be read if you doubt. Refut if you can, refut Michael Moore, people have tried and can not.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/index.php?id=24
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/

Now if this thread makes some people uncomfortable then please don't respond (or read it.) I believe a thread should only be declared dead when no one is responding to it. Lets also try not to make any personal attacks, fight facts with facts.

In response to the Hitler quote used against me who is trying to tell the lie? Perhaps you are actually defending a previous great lie?

As far as giving Micael Moore credit I certainly do and am a great supporter of his but I do fear that his belief that the Dems can solve all the problems is short sighted.

Am I a bleeding heart liberal? Well, if I had to give myself a label I would say Pacifist Buddist Socialist. Maybe my heart is bleeding. I certainly don't like the idea that innocent people are being killed so some rich people can get richer. Nor do I like the idea of American troops being killed for the same reason. I don't like the fact that the area of America I come from has such a high unemployment, I don't like the fact that it is so difficult for a certain section of society to get adaquate health care. I believe that social programs help people and should not be gutted in order to free up money for war. I think the American two party system is moribund and due for a massive overhaul. I don't hate America or my mother Smile

http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=17199

Ok?

Lyov

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Another purely "national" (or American) issue - who is interested in this kind of domestic stuff???
Discuss such crap on China Daily's forum, or start up a new one.

Communist Smurf · Joined: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 330 Location: San Francisco

lajzar · Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Posts: 647 Location: Saitama-ken, Japan

I agree with the orginal poster in general, but this debate has been handily won by Communist Smurf (who is incidentally about as true to his handle as Bush is to the spirit that made the USA).

If you want to be taken seriously in any debate, you don't quote openly partisan sources as your primary references. Rolling Eyes

mjed9 · Joined: 25 Oct 2003 Posts: 242

Communist Smurf · Joined: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 330 Location: San Francisco

desultude · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 614

The right wingers on this board get increasingly shrill and off topic the more the truth of the administration becomes obvious.

A certain tag team has stooped to calling its opponents "girls" (ooh, ouch, damn, he called me a girl, he must be taking lessons from the Arnold.)

What now passes for reasoned debate on the part of these parties is name calling.

These people are so sophmoric and silly, they aren't worth responding to. I highly suggest that we don't. The space they take is empty air. Ignore it.

Hector_Lector · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 548

I agree.

As I depart, a little joke -

George Bush has a heart attack and dies. He goes to hell where the Devil is waiting for him. I don't know what to do here" says the devil. "You're on my list, but I have no room for you. You definitely have to stay here, so I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I've got three folks here who weren't quite as bad as you. I'll let one of them go, but you have to take their place. I'll even let YOU decide who leaves." George thought that sounded pretty good, so he agreed. The devil opened the first room: in it was Richard Nixon and a large pool of water. He kept diving in and surfacing empty-handed over and over and over. Such was his fate in hell. "No!" George said. "I don't think so. I'm not a good swimmer and don't think I could do that all day long " The devil led him to the next room and in it was Tony Blair with a sledgehammer and a room full of rocks. All he did was swing that hammer, time after time after time. "No, I've got this problem with my shoulder. I would be in constant agony if all I could do was break rocks all day!" said George. The devil opened a third door. Inside, George saw Bill Clinton, lying on the floor with his arms staked over his head, and his legs staked in spread-eagle pose. Bent over him was Monica Lewinsky, doing what she does best. George Bush looked at this in disbelief for a while and finally said,"Yeah, I can handle this." The devil smiled and said, "OK, Monica, you're free to go."

mjed9 · Joined: 25 Oct 2003 Posts: 242