Job Discussion Forums

kovac · Joined: 12 Apr 2003 Posts: 78

Has anybody else ever noticed this ?

You practice your Japanese everyday, learning vocab, grammer, etc you think your making good progress, your mebbe scratching JLPT 4 or 3 then once in a while you happen to bang into a fellow gaijin who speaks the language like it was thier L1....

"wow ! great japanese ! how long have you studied !?"
"Uh...like, I dont really study, Ive only been here 1 year and I kinda just pick it up...."

USO !

Anybody else met folks like this as Im sure they are massive hoaxing fibbers...I met a dude who said he had lived in Japan only 6 months and only studied 6 months, yet he had his own car,mortgage and spoke fluently... another said he worked as a journalist and had only lived here a year, yet had almost level 1 JLPT standard despite claiming he had never picked up a study book in his life...and lest we forget the brit dude on NHK who said he mastered Hiragana and katakana on his flight over here...

Anybody else ever meet these lingistic master types ?

Or are they just massive bullsh*tters ?

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Tonester · Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:11 am Post subject:

Paul, I read that thread on Gaijinpot and I just think that most of them just want to feel important because they obviously don't have any other attribute that would draw attention from even the most shallow, gaikokujin-loving J-girl. What a bunch of pathetic losers! I don't mean to join the p-ssing content or start one here but my background was 3 years of study in HS in Australia,after graduating Australian HS I did an exchange for 10 months at a Saitama SHS 5 years ago and 3 years of majoring in it at uni. I got JLPT Level 2 in my 2nd year and it was bloody difficult. To be honest, all that study would have been worthless if I didn't do that exchange. I really have to study hard in order to keep fluent but it took me a long time to become proficient.

My point is, that everyone is different and I really hate those people that boast of their Japanese ability by saying that they picked it up just by being in Japan and say how naturally talented and great they are because it shows disdain for those that study, study and study but still have great trouble. It's a real verbal kick in the pants whenever someone says those things and I certainly feel the pain of that kick in the pants because I had to work really hard in my Japanese studies while some person who just says "I just picked it up from being here and got level 1 in 12 months" thinks they have the right to lord it over those that had to study such as myself and that really p-sses me off.

One English teacher from NZ at the Saitama SHS I went to has been in Japan for nearly 8 years and even he still has trouble. He once told me that it doesn't matter what level of the JLPT you have, all that matters is that you can speak fluently because an employer any day would prefer that.

Let's say that you (I'm making assumptions here- apologies) who doesn't have any JLPT certficate and a person that has level 2 are going for the same job which requires Japanese competence. Let's say that the person with level 2 in this case cannot speak Japanese fluently while you on the other hand can.

Who do you think the employer would pick? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out who'd get the job now, wouldn't it?

Note: This situation described is just a hypothetical situation to prove my point.

Dr.J · Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 304 Location: usually Japan

And yet, people often (wrongly) put a lot of weight on qualifications.

I'd be tempted to ask, if he can speak so well, why didn't he just get the qualification? But then I'm not an employer so there.

Sounding fluent to a non-fluent person is very different from 1) actually being fluent and 2) being a good communicator, which may have nothing to do with fluency at all.

I know people who are fluent in English but just jabber for half an hour before you can figure out what their point is. Ah, I forgot what my point was.

Tonester · Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:52 am Post subject:

By posting my above post I did not intend to say that qualifications such as the ones I have are not the be all and end all and I readily admit that I do not have the highest ability in Japanese but they certainly help. Without that exchange my pieces of paper would be worthless. I find that for some people qualifications are not necessary. Dr J, are you referring to that NZ english teacher I was posting about?

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Just one extra comment based on my own experiences and observations

A person just 'picking up the language' in Japan would need to be exposed to the language and vocabulary used by native speakers in a virtual immersion environment. Someone working 8 hours a day at a language school and then going out drinking with their buddies after work would not get the exposure to langauge they need to pass level 1 (or even level 2( after 6 months. you dont just 'pick up' grammar and syntax by watching TV or listening to the radio.

As well as learning the 2000 Kanji they would need to internalise the language by massive amounts of input and reading and using the language. Most people will see a word 4 or 5 times before they will remember it. Maybe some people have photographic memories but i seriously doubt it.

A person may also have a high vocabulary and speak japanese very badly, as to be almost unintelligible to a native speaker. I know at least one person who has the same level as me, but his Australian accent mangles his words and his intonation is all off. Not bad Japanese for a level 2 but his pronunciation is all out of whack. It would be very hard for a beginner to discern what is fluent and non-fluent Japanese. personally, and based on recent research i have done, if one is an adult it would be next to impossible to go from raw beginner to flawless Japanese in a year, for a grown adult. Fluent would be someone like Dave Spector or Zane Camut- David studied manga from the age of 10 and Zane came here as a 6-year old.

Tonester · Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:07 am Post subject:

Well, Dave and Thane both pretty much grew up on Japanese. Thane was raised in Japan so I guess that's why he's fluent. Dave also is an NHK regular so if he wasn't up to par they obviously wouldn't let him go on TV.

What I'm about to say may be offensive but it really grates on me when someone non-Japanese who speaks Japanese and makes no attempt to pronounce words properly. I hear those people and I just feel like telling them to go back to school or give up completely. Almost speaking Japanese with a half-@ssed attitude thinking "She'll be right, they'll understand no matter how thick my accent is". I always miniminse my accent whenever I speak and have no problems while others I hear make no attempt to speak properly.

TokyoLiz · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1548 Location: Tokyo, Japan

I've run into the pera pera ja nai gaijin, too. One case was a Canadian guy who, to any beginner learner, sounded quite conversant in Japanese, and who was praised by Japanese and other gaijin alike for his ability in the language. When I actually heard this guy speak Japanese, I near fell over - he sounded like a girl! He'd learned most of his Japanese language skills from a girlfriend.

The other dangerous language learning situation I've encountered is jr high school. So many foreign teachers pick up their Japanese language skills from the kids and end up sounding silly because they use slangy or teenage expressions with no hint of irony because they're unaware of the difference in register used by adults and children.

I'm not fluent either, btw. I like to say that I'm conversant. I only have first year university Japanese (studied it 10 years ago), and have lived 2 and a half years all told in Japan.

I spent a lot of time on independent study at the desk for the first year (such is ALT life) in rural Japan, and now I live in Tokyo. My fluency has increased in Tokyo (I have a huge vocabulary, but wobbly grammar), but I'm guessing I'd get through level 3 okay, but maybe not survive level 2 of the proficiency test.

But even then, as Tonester says, a Japanese language learner may be able to get through the tests and have lousy speaking skills.

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Tonester · Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:55 am Post subject:

I still get old people praising my proficiency but I do know to take it with a grain of salt. Strange,eh? Almost like reverse psychology in play here......

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

I get the Nihongo Jouzu desu pretty much anytime I open my mouth lately. It's gotten to the point where I am fluent when talking about my jouzuness.

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

Maybe we should just tell them that for Japanese people, they have handling a knife and fork when eating western meals down pretty good too. May be interesting to see their reactions.

"naifu to fo-ku no tsukaikata wa jouzu desu ne....."

Tonester · Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:

You'd certainly get some strange stares, I reckon. I just think that it is ignorance due to being closed off for such a long time! You can thank the late Tokugawa Family for that........

bisca · Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 13

Whoever who gets to Level 1 from scratch is obviously lying!

This girl who'd 4 years of Japanese back in Australia and studied hard for a year in Japan managed to get her ni-kyu but for most of us, it was either a 4-kyuu or a 3-kyuu.

But that gentleman who managed to memorize katakana and hiragana on the plane.. well.. that's possible. Because all of us managed to remember katakana and hiragana in about 3 hours!

kovac · Joined: 12 Apr 2003 Posts: 78

This seems to be a common claim, I learnt Hiragana and Katakana in a few hours....no way ! I studied japanese for a year just spoken, when I came to japan I couldnt read, so I decided its time to practice, it took me about 2 months to remember both without making mistakes...how can anyone possibly remember 92 pictorial phonics in 3 hours !?!!? (mebbe its just me and Im daft as a bag of sticks, I still read at the speed of a 6 year old)

Thanks Tonester, you summed it up perfectly, I always get the "having my nose rubbed in it" feeling by other gaijin when it comes to learning the language...its funny with Japanese language but there does seem to be a one upmanship amongst foreign learners...it is hard work (some say the 3rd hardest to lean language in the world) and there does seem to be a real air of "competition" about it

Everytime I meet someone who is learning Japanese they always seem to have a "oh Im one step ahead of YOU !" attitude, I wonder in Europe are there EFL teachers..."Well I learnt spanish in just 6 minutes ! eh ! eh ! what do you think of that !? eh !"