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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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 Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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A Note:
I do not, in any way, seek to relegate or diminish the conclusions of the OP or Xie Lin as I believe their posts resist an all too easy indignation precipitated by the sort of dissent steki47 seeks to assert.
I try to engage language purporting to address ethnicity and "race" as James Randi does psychics. Identify the claims, disentangle misdirections, and demonstrate their frailty and ignorance. Because a forum of teachers shouldn't be reduced to ad hominim dismissals or analogues and metaphors. Racist conclusion is all too real and menacing and addressing ignorance is our stock and trade. Insinuated (unsaid) biases litter anyone's lexicon and some are especially pernicious. Some obviously so, others not.
After surviving some number of decades, I came to view truth as a belief I might abandon as often as adhere. What I recognize as truth is slowly built from experiences (or the name I give my mistakes), yet nothing is as radical as truth, nothing as wholly unfamiliar and very often painful. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:56 am Post subject: Re: What's Happening at the University of Missouri? |
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| gregory999 wrote: |
| Racism still is a part of a DNA of some Americans who inherited this virus from their grandfathers since the slavery era. |
Sorry, do you think white racism is genetic in nature? Subtle humor? |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:57 am Post subject: |
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From the first link
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| “There is no rank order to injustice,” DeRay McKesson, a prominent civil rights activist, tweeted. “We fight for #Mizzou, #PrayForParis, and seek justice for #SandraBland — at the same time.” |
Second link
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| The Dartmouth Review bi-weekly newspaper slammed the protesters for their “tactics, tone and words” used to stigmatize their own classmates. |
So, how does illegitimate protest diluting the progress of legitimate protest support any argument you've made in the thread? |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
From the first link
| Quote: |
| “There is no rank order to injustice,” DeRay McKesson, a prominent civil rights activist, tweeted. “We fight for #Mizzou, #PrayForParis, and seek justice for #SandraBland — at the same time.” |
Second link
| Quote: |
| The Dartmouth Review bi-weekly newspaper slammed the protesters for their “tactics, tone and words” used to stigmatize their own classmates. |
So, how does illegitimate protest diluting the progress of legitimate protest support any argument you've made in the thread? |
The first quote there is the most moderate statement made. Yes, there was condemnation of the students' behavior. My point was that some Black students were angry that the murders in Paris stole attention from their tantrum or even that 150+ murders was equal to Blacks complaining about "racism". The childish self-centered behavior was quite jarring to me. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| The first quote there is the most moderate statement made. |
And made by whom, Steki47? Moderate? It was contradictory to the sample of objectionable tweets that are and should be condemned.
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| My point was that some Black students were angry that the murders in Paris stole attention from their tantrum or even that 150+ murders was equal to Blacks complaining about "racism". The childish self-centered behavior was quite jarring to me. |
Some is the operative word you're now asserting characterizes a larger protest given legitimacy and support from teachers and the coaching staff. Your insistence to characterize the protest as a "tantrum" is not supported by minority remonstration that has been summarily condemned. You're not "jarred". Your assertions are desperate to support a contention to reject the protest is warranted and with broad, mature support. Desperate to affix a malevolent agenda to valid protest you have speciously compared to disease that might "spread". |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| The first quote there is the most moderate statement made. |
And made by whom, Steki47? Moderate? It was contradictory to the sample of objectionable tweets that are and should be condemned.
| Quote: |
| My point was that some Black students were angry that the murders in Paris stole attention from their tantrum or even that 150+ murders was equal to Blacks complaining about "racism". The childish self-centered behavior was quite jarring to me. |
Some is the operative word you're now asserting characterizes a larger protest given legitimacy and support from teachers and the coaching staff. Your insistence to characterize the protest as a "tantrum" is not supported by minority remonstration that has been summarily condemned. You're not "jarred". Your assertions are desperate to support a contention to reject the protest is warranted and with broad, mature support. Desperate to affix a malevolent agenda to valid protest you have speciously compared to disease that might "spread". |
Wow, you see right through me. 
I still see Black students complaining about White racism and then demanding that White people help them. While complaining about "White privilege". And White uni staff caving in. Hard not see the racial implications there. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| Wow, you see right through me. |
YOU aren't the concern. But the continued indulgence of anemic, racist rhetoric on a forum of professional teachers is...
Evading issues through some perceived sanctity of decorum won't help you.
Respecting the topic and a forum of professionals of which a majority are none-to-happy to indulge said provocation might.
| Quote: |
| I still see Black students complaining about White racism and then demanding that White people help them. While complaining about "White privilege". And White uni staff caving in. Hard not see the racial implications there. |
What's hard is a rational defense of specious narratives requiring interpretation and devoid of support. Your citations have yet to substantiate your conclusions. You're seeing what you choose to see-- attemping to characterize an event by emphasis on negative aspects of it to suit a narrative.
Last edited by buravirgil on Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| But the continued indulgence of anemic, racist rhetoric on a forum of professional teachers is... |
I really don't see the conflict here. Yes, this site is for EFL teachers. However, this forum is dedicated to current events and lends itself to expressions of different perspectives.
Oh, racism is a social construct. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Maybe there's not a "conflict", but there is a culture, for right or wrong, that develops degrees of tolerance. "Expressions of different perspectives" will not likely include sources devoid of academic or journalistic standing that I believe many would rightly criticize as only furthering toxic speech. Such is why I addressed a matter of proportion as requiring statistical analysis, not simply aggregation.
Race is a social construct. Racism is its elaboration and application. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
Maybe there's not a "conflict", but there is a culture, for right or wrong, that develops degrees of tolerance. "Expressions of different perspectives" will not likely include sources devoid of academic or journalistic standing that I believe many would rightly criticize as only furthering toxic speech. Such is why I addressed a matter of proportion as requiring statistical analysis, not simply aggregation.
Race is a social construct. Racism is its elaboration and application. |
Unsurprisingly, I hold the opposite view: race is real and racism is a social construct (usually a pathologization of tribalism). You, on the other hand, go along with the standard party line. So be it.
For the record, I have backed up my points with credible sources. Maybe you don't like them. In any case, I have provided sources for my points. It would be time-consuming to dig up all my links to genetics studies. (I am creating a more accessible list of such links ATM.)
"Toxic speech"? Laughing a bit, sorry. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| Unsurprisingly, I hold the opposite view: race is real and racism is a social construct (usually a pathologization of tribalism). You, on the other hand, go along with the standard party line. So be it. |
A "party line" refers to factions among competing interests and picked up some currency among critics of the prevalent party of socialist republics. It's just this kind of obfuscation I address. Your posts are riddled with them. That race is a social construct is embraced by current study in both anthropology and sociology, i.e., academe that proceeds by collaborative effort, study, and peer review. Let the forum know when your tribalism thesis has been approved and defended any where on any campus.
What I "like" isn't relevant to supporting argument that proceeds by verifiable basis. You've yet to answer any challenge to your sources until now and only offer a sweeping qualification of "credible". Prior, you simply re-asserted terms without acknowledging the discourse offered-- in effect, you seek to lecture among a forum of lecturers and have been liberally indulged.
Having invited you to address proportion, simply citing an aggregate list of anecdotes from sites openly engaging an agenda of racist distinction is furthering that agenda on this site. I, for one, care not at all you're amused by a pointed accusation, and the phrasing of such is clearly disingenuous. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| That race is a social construct is embraced by current study in both anthropology and sociology, i.e., academe that proceeds by collaborative effort, study, and peer review. Let the forum know when your tribalism thesis has been approved and defended any where on any campus. |
The "race is a social construct" concept is largely an American one. Lieberman (2013) noted that European anthropologists are 50/50 on the biological concept of race and Asian anthropologists are 100% on recognizing biological races.
Tribalism? Putnam (2000) of Harvard did some great research on race in America. He concluded that homogeneous areas had higher levels of trust and interaction. Conversely, heterogeneous areas had lower levels of both. Other studies have found similar patterns. Vanhanen (2013) observed that 70% of the hot conflicts in the world were in heterogeneous regions.
I find accusations of racism to be hollow. Indeed, the word is losing its meaning and often comes across as an empty attack word.
BTW, we probably should get back to the Mizzou incident. But that is also racial in nature. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I admit a bias in regard to American and British universities, and what half of Europe is not cited to have documented what publications of the past (18th and early 19th century) purported race to be a measurable phenomenon versus any current and theoretical basis you mention.
Tribalism is certainly a topic, but your particular terming "patholigization" is not.
No accusation of racism was made other than that of an agenda of sites you linked to that list anecdotes. Are you a victim? Describing language as racist (versus racial) is a distinction of which you are either ignorant or willfully avoiding. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh that article referred to Western European anthropologists. Cant remember the data on Eastern Europeans. |
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